Prime WS Information, Testing, Discussion

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Prime WS Information, Testing, Discussion
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 Shiva.Flowen
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By Shiva.Flowen 2023-06-09 13:03:45
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Let's keep this thread solely for sharing information on the new prime weaponskills; WS numbers/sceenshots, hypothetical discussions on WS properties, such as stat mods and fTP, gear sets and buffs/debuffs used etc.

No discussions/comments on how much people hate sortie, why weapon requirements suck etc.
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 Shiva.Flowen
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By Shiva.Flowen 2023-06-09 13:19:01
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Staff/Oshala below - Thank you Mischief:

Great Katana/Tachi: Mumei below - Thank you Ejiin:
- more Mumei - Thank you Mewtwo:
https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/57318/prime-ws-information-testing-discussion/14/#3669608


Scythe/Origin below - Thank you Aramith & Disclai:
- more Scythe - Thank you Samuraiking & SimonSes:
https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/57318/prime-ws-information-testing-discussion/9/#3668236

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/57318/prime-ws-information-testing-discussion/13/#3669039

fTP testing - Thank you SimonSes:

Great Axe/Disaster below - Thank you Ahlen:

Sword/Imperator below - Thank you Ahlen:

Gun/Terminus below - Thank you Ahlen:

Great Sword/Fimbulvetr below - Thank you Velner:

Horn/Aria of Passion - Thanks to many for calling out whether or not it was on for their numbers, and Ravael/SimonSes for testing:

Song PDL
+2 = ~+15%
+3 = ~+16%
+5 = ~+19%
+6 = ~+20%

PDL is doubled under SV.

- Aria on savage blade, thank you Samuraiking: https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/57318/prime-ws-information-testing-discussion/9/#3668236

Dagger/Ruthless Stroke below - Thank you Skald & SimonSes:

Polearm/Diarmuid below - Thank you Jabrolout:

Bow/Sarv below - Thank you Demhar:
Sarv Video from Demhar: https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/57318/prime-ws-information-testing-discussion/16/#3670064


Katana/Zesho Meppo below - Thank you Prothescar:

Fists/Maru Kala below - Thank you Badstreak:

Aftermath Info - Thank you Prothescar:

1-hander (tested with axe)
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 Phoenix.Iocus
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By Phoenix.Iocus 2023-06-09 14:20:29
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Bahamut.Unagihito said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk said: »
So does the prime Axe pet Level + affect offhand?

It does.


That was the only other piece I saw from the other thread that was on topic for this thread. And I didn't see any proof to verify it, which I'm totally not asking for at this point. I can believe it for now and it will get verified later on other 1h weapons.

The Dagger video is a great example why knowing how to test is important. It really only showed off that you could make light with the dagger at low tp. No values for mid or high tp.

I *assume* all the face stats will work in the offhand if this is true. ASSUMPTION.
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 Bahamut.Unagihito
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By Bahamut.Unagihito 2023-06-09 15:42:42
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I was chatting with Falkirk in DMs about the axe until I had a chance to actually test the WS but here's some excepts:

Quote:
I'm only ML40 but with the Dire Jug slug:

+1
acc 1306 atk 794
eva 904 def 1514
+2
acc 1344 atk 816
eva 934 def 1558
+3
acc 1356 atk 840
eva 965 def 1608

relic gloves/sortie earring/empy feet equipped.
Swapped out the earring/feet for the axe and the numbers stayed the same.
The axe gives +1 level while in the offhand.

Yeah, the STR/DEX added to the character sheet while it was added in the offhand.
I lost 5 acc swapping hands with Spalirisos/Ikenga's Axe R30 because the Spalrisos has 5 more axe skill, but everything else stayed the same.
So I'd guess Crit would work in the offhand too.
I'll probably report in when I get a chance to test the WS a little.
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 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2023-06-09 16:12:59
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In the interest of hopefully getting usable data from people who might be unaware because this is your first time doing anything like this, going to quote myself with the guidelines on how to harvest basic information

The slug stats ended up being fine btw.

For a general idea on how things work a large sample size isn't going to be necessary. For the exact mechanics of every ws, however, it will take a relatively significant investment of time and due to people likely not wanting to waste plates on this, I personally don't expect to see that kind of data until stage 4.
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By Veydal1 2023-06-09 16:23:16
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Phoenix.Iocus said: »
...
The Dagger video is a great example why knowing how to test is important. It really only showed off that you could make light with the dagger at low tp. No values for mid or high tp.

I *assume* all the face stats will work in the offhand if this is true. ASSUMPTION.

Would you mind sharing the link to the video for dagger please?
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2023-06-09 16:26:19
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https://twitter.com/ff11377/status/1666790406963757057


Since it needs to be stated: please don't use this video as an indication of the power of the weaponskill under normal circumstances. You're looking at someone throwing out a few weaponskills as they're about to be kicked out of the zone at the end of their run, not a serious attempt at showcasing the weapon.
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 Asura.Melliny
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By Asura.Melliny 2023-06-09 16:33:17
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I posted this in the other thread but it bears mentioning here as well. A few things I noticed from watching that video.

  • His pDIF ratio is very low. His melee hits range from 40-110, with the average sitting around 80. For comparison, at capped pDIF Twashtar does around 550-650 damage per hit.

  • His accuracy is too low for the mob he's fighting. You can see the misses in the chat log. His TP returns from the four weaponskills were 235, 145, 217, and 199, so he's missing swings, and in most cases more than one.

  • He's only showing us weaponskill numbers from the 1250-1350 range. We know that merciless strike scales with TP, so there's a good chance the damage could scale harder at the 2k and 3k anchor tier



Under those conditions the damage numbers in that video are actually quite high, and we never saw what numbers a 2k or 3k weaponskill would have produced. Merciless strike appears to have a lot of potential.
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By RadialArcana 2023-06-09 18:54:20
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Are the weapon skills visually identical to relic?
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2023-06-09 19:07:28
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That part you can see in the video. Yes they are
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 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2023-06-09 21:50:59
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I have the horn, but it may be several days before my group gets around to doing an actual testing run. For those who are more in the know than I am, are there any specific conditions you would like to see tested for the Aria of Passion song?
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 Asura.Volteczero
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By Asura.Volteczero 2023-06-09 22:30:53
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One thing that I would like to see tested is if any of the prime WS has a static enmity generation like namas arrow or coronach. I should get my weapon tomorrow, if no one tested it by then.
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 Asura.Melliny
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By Asura.Melliny 2023-06-09 23:07:32
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That was something I wanted to see tested with the gun and bow as well. If the weaponskills attached to them are as powerful as they seem like they're going to be, then spamming them in tandem is a really quick way to get yourself killed. There is a reason rangers are hesitant to switch from annihalator to gandiva too early against arrebati. If they DO come with some form of enmity suppression mechanics though... well. I think I know which weapons I'm most interest in building first. Pinga is the one that interests me most because you can fire it off from true shot range, but I'd take an enmity control weaponskill on Earp too.
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By Shiva.Flowen 2023-06-10 00:20:59
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Asura.Volteczero said: »
One thing that I would like to see tested is if any of the prime WS has a static enmity generation like namas arrow or coronach. I should get my weapon tomorrow, if no one tested it by then.

I've been thinking this too. I am leaning towards the gun, but would love to see bow back in good shape outside am3 dmg. Excited to see your results!
 
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 Shiva.Flowen
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By Shiva.Flowen 2023-06-10 00:46:59
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
I have the horn, but it may be several days before my group gets around to doing an actual testing run. For those who are more in the know than I am, are there any specific conditions you would like to see tested for the Aria of Passion song?

Grats! And thanks for offering this info.

Something like Coronach or Namas arrow is usually my go to for testing PDL (just be careful with distance for true shot, and rng attack AM on anni). I was planning on swapping around regal ring with ephramad to bench mark the value of 10 PDL, then test aria, with marcato, with SV etc. You want to make sure you are attack capped enough to fully benefit from aria, which is likely best tested up to your max PDL (jse neck, ear, emp etc) then removing it from sets when you start aria testing. Good thing about coro and namas is they will be so static that it wont take many ws to work out aria PDL values. But I realize this is asking a lot inside sortie...
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By SimonSes 2023-06-10 00:51:56
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SimonSes said: »
Not enough data obviously, but it looks like Oshala has a very steep increase from 1000 to 2000TP, then much lower for 2000 to 3000.

My guess from experience and provided data (based on calculations) would be:

WSC:
50%INT
50%MND

fTP:
1000 2.4
2000 8.25
3000 11.5

But it can also be 60%INT 60%MND with slightly lowers fTP
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 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2023-06-10 02:00:26
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Shiva.Flowen said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
I have the horn, but it may be several days before my group gets around to doing an actual testing run. For those who are more in the know than I am, are there any specific conditions you would like to see tested for the Aria of Passion song?

Grats! And thanks for offering this info.

Something like Coronach or Namas arrow is usually my go to for testing PDL (just be careful with distance for true shot, and rng attack AM on anni). I was planning on swapping around regal ring with ephramad to bench mark the value of 10 PDL, then test aria, with marcato, with SV etc. You want to make sure you are attack capped enough to fully benefit from aria, which is likely best tested up to your max PDL (jse neck, ear, emp etc) then removing it from sets when you start aria testing. Good thing about coro and namas is they will be so static that it wont take many ws to work out aria PDL values. But I realize this is asking a lot inside sortie...

Any ranged attack would work, doesn't need to be either relic WS. Cap attack w/ geo and have your COR shoot at one of the mobs that I listed stats for. Do it once without the song, then again with. Can easily tell how much PDL it has on it that way, especially since at most COR will only have PDL I naturally from /NIN sub, can lock slots or something to ensure they don't shoot in extra PDL gear (for COR this basically means just avoid Malignance and Ikenga in midshot). Frailty+Fury w/ Chaos will cap attack since those are normal mobs and thus unaffected by geomancy nerfs.
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By SimonSes 2023-06-10 04:11:43
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
-There is no easy way to test for fTP replication in Sortie. We can fudge it by manipulating ACC so that the first hit often misses but getting something to happen like only 1 of the last 3 hits landing would be hard. Much easier when you can go hit a NIN mob.

-Multihit weaponskill testing will be complicated because of the last point. We can't say whether fTP replicates or not, therefor we can't know specific fTP of each hit without spending a lot of plates. Getting the first hit fTP and full WS fTP would be 'easier' but still a pain in the ***.

-What Sortie will be good for is getting general data such as WS mods (unlikely to get exact WSC but will know what affects which WS at least) and a general idea of http://fTP. For ranged and single hit melee WS we can get much closer to an accurate set of values assuming the people testing are properly documenting all of the necessary information so that we can pool results into bigger sample sets.


Afaik that trick on NIN doesn't work anyway. First hit that connects after shadow is calculated as main hit.

You also makes it too complicated. You don't really need much plates. You can probably test everything in one run.

What you need is fotia gorget or belt.

Finding ftp for main hit
1. Go hit/ws acuex with capped attack until it's at low%
2. Killshot with prime WS
3. Repeat until you get distribution of damage when highest is 5% higher then lowest or at least close.
4. Repeat with fotia

Repeat for 1000, 2000, 3000TP

This will let you find exact fTP on main hit because you can calculate it from knowing the damage increase from +0.1 fTP
If you know exact fTP, you could technically calculate WSC mods too, but since those WSs has 2-3 mods and we can't be sure they are even one more test is required.

1. Do the same as in previous points 1. to 3. but add 30 base stats. Mods are almost for sure the ones featured on weapon and easiest way to do it is boost-stat from WHM. If you get new distribution with added 30 base stats and knowing fTP, it's easy to calculate exact WSC mod (you need to provide values for your stats, WSD and PDL)

Edit: For ranged WS this is ofc much easier, because there is no distribution. Its always same damage at capped attack, so whole test would take like few minutes top and there is no ftp replication to find, since it's one hit WSs.
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By LightningHelix 2023-06-10 08:03:26
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SimonSes said: »
Afaik that trick on NIN doesn't work anyway. First hit that connects after shadow is calculated as main hit.
...doesn't that guarantee that you get main hit and then X more hits, reduced by shadows? so if there's two shadows and you launch a four-hitter then you're guaranteed to get exactly main + 1 of the followups (assuming 100% accuracy rate work with me here)
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By SimonSes 2023-06-10 10:22:37
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LightningHelix said: »
SimonSes said: »
Afaik that trick on NIN doesn't work anyway. First hit that connects after shadow is calculated as main hit.
...doesn't that guarantee that you get main hit and then X more hits, reduced by shadows? so if there's two shadows and you launch a four-hitter then you're guaranteed to get exactly main + 1 of the followups (assuming 100% accuracy rate work with me here)

Yeah I guess you could check fTP replication this way. You can also check fTP replication without NIN or shadows simply checking your TP return. You will then know how many hits connected and can check if whole damage divided by number of hits is close to main hit damage. It's probably easier then waiting for miss on main hit.

I will test one weapon for sure, but I wont have it faster than in two weeks probably and I still haven't decided which I want the most.
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By Shiva.Flowen 2023-06-10 14:13:08
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Any ranged attack would work

Agreed. Just need to handle any crits and associated pDIF change appropriately (or exclude from test), but yeah capping with x PDL from song on a crit should still be true on the regular upstairs mobs with a geo. Should be quite a simple test, can also try with and without moonbow whistle to test + all songs impact.
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By Asura.Volteczero 2023-06-11 20:37:59
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I didn't get the chance to test enmity generation on prime WS, but after playing with prime staff for 1 sortie run, my first impression is that I'm not super impressed with it, the only redeeming quality that I notice so far is that the damage difference with aftermath effect seems to be significant.

However, IMO the duration of aftermath is incredibly short even at AM3, making using this weapon at full power very annoying. I hope this improves with further upgrade. After I finish playing around with this weapon, I'll probably switch back to Laevateinn for my daily sortie grind.
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 Shiva.Flowen
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By Shiva.Flowen 2023-06-11 22:13:15
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Asura.Volteczero said: »
I didn't get the chance to test enmity generation on prime WS, but after playing with prime staff for 1 sortie run, my first impression is that I'm not super impressed with it, the only redeeming quality that I notice so far is that the damage difference with aftermath effect seems to be significant.

However, IMO the duration of aftermath is incredibly short even at AM3, making using this weapon at full power very annoying. I hope this improves with further upgrade. After I finish playing around with this weapon, I'll probably switch back to Laevateinn for my daily sortie grind.

Which ranged prime did you go for (assuming on another char)? can you comment on damage?
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By ashcrow 2023-06-12 07:15:45
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Asura.Volteczero said: »
I didn't get the chance to test enmity generation on prime WS, but after playing with prime staff for 1 sortie run, my first impression is that I'm not super impressed with it, the only redeeming quality that I notice so far is that the damage difference with aftermath effect seems to be significant.

However, IMO the duration of aftermath is incredibly short even at AM3, making using this weapon at full power very annoying. I hope this improves with further upgrade. After I finish playing around with this weapon, I'll probably switch back to Laevateinn for my daily sortie grind.
Wait you already have Prime weapon with Aftermath level and its only good after the aftermath?
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By zixxer 2023-06-12 07:38:23
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Right now for me anyways, shield is a safe pick, being a main pld.

BUT... I do enjoy Sam and War. If someone has those primes, please share some insights, numbers, anything... Would help with a decision.
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By SimonSes 2023-06-12 08:32:13
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ashcrow said: »
Asura.Volteczero said: »
I didn't get the chance to test enmity generation on prime WS, but after playing with prime staff for 1 sortie run, my first impression is that I'm not super impressed with it, the only redeeming quality that I notice so far is that the damage difference with aftermath effect seems to be significant.

However, IMO the duration of aftermath is incredibly short even at AM3, making using this weapon at full power very annoying. I hope this improves with further upgrade. After I finish playing around with this weapon, I'll probably switch back to Laevateinn for my daily sortie grind.
Wait you already have Prime weapon with Aftermath level and its only good after the aftermath?

Every rank from 3 to 5 has aftermath.
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By SimonSes 2023-06-12 08:46:36
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Asura.Volteczero said: »
I didn't get the chance to test enmity generation on prime WS, but after playing with prime staff for 1 sortie run, my first impression is that I'm not super impressed with it, the only redeeming quality that I notice so far is that the damage difference with aftermath effect seems to be significant.

However, IMO the duration of aftermath is incredibly short even at AM3, making using this weapon at full power very annoying. I hope this improves with further upgrade. After I finish playing around with this weapon, I'll probably switch back to Laevateinn for my daily sortie grind.

Im not really sure what's surprising with it. Staff without aftermath is pretty transparent and you should know exactly what to expect from 25INT 60mab and 294mdmg.

It should be pretty obvious that without aftermath it wont be a competition for some top picks, but how is a 3min aftermath hard to use in Sortie? Everything beside mega boss should die within 3min, so it should fit perfectly.
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By Asura.Volteczero 2023-06-12 13:32:42
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looks like some testing with prime gun WS
https://twitter.com/Aramith9/status/1668295029654437889
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