Prime WS Information, Testing, Discussion

Did anyone see numbers anywhere for the Axe? Centovente is cool but it's no Ikenga's Axe. I'd be happy for another carrot to seriously think about BST.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the additional hits baked in are just higher potential starting tp after WS. Whether Prime Dagger's WS is big single hit WSD like Rudra's or ftp replicating, it's still just a net possitive when using WSs that scale with TP.

Looking at current report from Dagger and Katana I would be surprised if Axe is anything different. That being said we dont know specific details for dagger and katana, just some calculation based on very limited data.

You are not wrong. TP from additional hits is good to make another WS faster or with more TP. That being said it's like 20TP per additional hit if you have +100 storeTP in WS set, so its nothing game breaking. Definitely not something you would gear for on WS without fTP replication.
You are right though, that several free additional hits even on WS with high fTP only at main hit is still a nice bonus. Especially for RDM who has massive TA from Temper II and will very often hit 7-8 hits with Merciless Strike. Slightly less, but still the same for THF and for DNC with Saber Dance. That many hits are also not completely irrelevant for damage even without fTP replication. Even at 1fTP per hit, if main hit would have 7,17.5,26 "fTP weight" after multiplying by 75%WSD, then up to 7 fTP from additional hits isn't marginal. Worst case scenario at 3000TP without MA proc, they would still be +15% ws damage and even one TA proc at around 2250TP they would be +30% ws damage.

FYI - I've started updating the first page (post 2) to save people flicking through the thread: https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/57318/prime-ws-information-testing-discussion/1/#3667123

Has anyone done any actual testing that might yield something like an fTP or modifier yet?

*** no, what do you think this is.

Part of the problem with sortie. You'd have to waste precious seconds to figure it out and that would put you behind a day. For Christs sake, that's heresy.

I've yet to see a single post of any decernable value. Just screenshots of useless damage, bitching, and it make skillchain more good.
(no topic ban for keepin it 100 please thanks)

Yeah it's actually kind of of wild nobody has done an actual test yet, Not like people owe the community that effort, but would think at least one person wanted to know just for themselves.

I just recently resubbed so am pretty far behind on the galli so can't do it myself anytime soon. Hopefully simon finishes one soon, I'm sure he would test.

can't we just all agree that until stage 4 weapons start appearing in 2-3 months and testing can occur outside of Sortie, the "information" we get is never going to please the harshest of critics, and enjoy this dark period for what it is?

You don't need perfect testing and 100% of the data to make a decision on a Prime Weapon. Pick one for a job you enjoy that intrigues you, and live with that decision. Its ok if its not "tEH mOSt L33t DPS EVAHHHH" if you enjoy the results.

Face it- there's a super small group posting here that wants good information just for the sake of information and the betterment of the community....but the VAST majority of people posting here just want the fastest to the finish line to tell them what to do.

1000% agree. Sometimes you just have to accept that you're dealing with emotionally under-developed, un-evolved people. As one of my closest friends would say when he screamed into the microphone to everyone bickering: "Do you want to just play the *** game or not?"

I look forward to SE nerfing the meta prime weapon (which is looking like scythe) and all the bitching that comes with it.

He didn't say that on Asura. They'd catch the mic before it dropped, pawn it and use the money for merc services.


"No, we don't want the play the game. We want you to play the game for us so all the mistakes are made at your expense. Then when proper testing is done, we spend our points on the BiS weapon and mock you for picking the wrong weapon."


This thread is months away from providing valuable information about the topic. I get that people are bored, but what did we really expect to happen here?

I don't think some people realize how little effort it would take to get an aprox. value on some aspects of the prime weapons, Like aftermath values and 3k ftp / ws mods at the very least.

Think it is fair for people to expect that info to be out there by now given how FFXI's community is.

Like most groups run with a geo and cor (magic setups), some of those cors prob got gun, All it would take was a few 3k TP prime WS and a few 3k TP non prime ws with aftermath up with geo frailty/fury/dia2 on trash mobs while doing objectives to get a pretty good look at lvl3 aftermath/3k tp values.

Suppose with a smaller community there is just less people interested in that stuff tho which is fine.

Info is exactly as expected based on the time since release and third stage wep being event locked. Remember that the people who post first are the ones playing with 5 others every day, so they need buy in from those 5 others to slow progress towards next wep/stage to conduct proper testing.

That being said if you cant discern anything of value from the info shared then you are just a simpleton, no question about it, but that is different to saying we have defined fTP and modifiers determined.

I am certain almost everyone who has contributed to the info so far knows vastly more about ffxi math and weaponskill calculations than anyone being negative above this post. Are you really dumb enough to think we see a 99999 screenshot and think we know the mods, fTP and therefore MUST have said weapon? Yes it's ballpark and early days but it's still interesting to get a flavour. Take your uneducated and naive views elsewhere.

This is super buffed to the teeth, DNC/drg. Actual useful info and math things from Simon be here soon.

It is ultra front loaded like savage blade.

What the heck? I thought the weaponskill was called merciless strike, not ruthless stroke. Not that it really makes a difference mind you. It just comes as a surprise is all. Numbers are very intriguing. I expected it would be pretty powerful. Looks really good.

Yeah, I had to adjust macro once I entered having prepared it for merciless strike. It's ruthless stroke on dagger as well.

Not enough data to tell for sure. I will ask you few additional questions later Skald. Need to sleep a little and go to work now XD
Mainly, was there any WSD in that set you used with disabled gearswap? Like maybe on cape?

It's for sure fTP scaled on first hit, not ftp replication though.

A couple weaponskills were renamed on the second update. Katana, for example, was fixed to be zessho meppo rather than jijin kaimetsu.

I think this dagger is mainly for DNC. It has very good synergy with building and climactic flourish and DNC also takes full advantage of Skillchains with capped skillchain damage bonus. It seems to be less appealing for THF who has access to Naegling and Savage and even less for RDM who has access to both Naegling and Maxentius. For RDM it's just best piercing option or very good option for solo Skillchains. For group play in sortie it doesn't offer much to RDM though.

I mean why would they nerf it? The only testing done is inside sortie while the ws numbers are cool that's only in sortie. It's not impressive and groundbreaking til we see it in something outside of that. This part is for people saying it's being judged by the harshest critics it really not just more so people not just falling head over heels for damage done to stuff SE said bosses would react differently to the weapons.

Edit: The test being done are nice to see that the scythe is like I thought when we saw the weapon stats its gonna be a great weapon in select spots for sure even if it's not top dps it just replaces apoc and now more than likely lib?(Don't quote me)

I think higher damage inside Sortie is definitely not a thing. SE only wrote about bosses, while damage is the same for every mob inside Sortie, not just bosses. They wanted to make bis weapons and thats a result.

I also doesn't believe they will do anything about damage on Gaxe, Gsword and Scythe (so far those 3 seems to be slightly higher damage than others, but its also because of native JA those jobs have). If anything they might boost other WSs. There will be no balance nerf at this point in the game, just forget it (I would be surprised by balance buffs on Primes, but that's at least possible in my opinion).

EDIT: Also Savage/BlackHalo in sortie doing 80-90k with buffs and you want to nerf Primes doing 60-99k? Yeah, not gonna happen, especially after nothing happened to Naegling/Savage for years. With new ring and song DRG/dnc will do 99k Savage all the time with stupid WS frequency and will require much less buffs too

Assuming any that were stacked with Clim were 99k?

Well that continues the streak of 1H primes being relatively disappointing for group play.

Is it that hard to design one-handed primes that can beat or at least be competitive with ambuscade weapons WS-for-WS? (Yes, obviously. Naegling should've been nerfed years ago.)

What kind of numbers did you see with 3000 tp ruthless strokes?

Yes for Climactic and 99k.
The 62-65k on A boss are all 2780-3000TP (with cento and moonshade). Most 3000TP on Leeches were ~62-63k.

You think we've seen enough evidence of Axe, Sword, Katana, Dagger (Club) at this point to know that they'll all be outdone by Naegling? We haven't even seen a single stage 4 prime be used yet, let alone a stage 5, and there's like 3 screenshots total amongst all 4 of those weapons being used in buffed/debuffed situations. And one of them did 160k per WS, and it's missing 13 base damage, 10 dex, 10 agi, 10 chr, 3% TA, 17 acc/atk, and any possible hidden effects.

I'm not saying any/all of those weapons are better than Naegling necessarily, but I don't think we have anything like definitive evidence that this is true.

Also: this is FFXI, the king of sidegrades. Even if the raw WS damage isn't better by itself, having new SC properties and a weapon which performs better under certain conditions (extra attack) is quintessential FFXI.

Odyssey C. Regular songs/chaosroll/Sylvie/Diaiii

3000TP First hit only on this one
Baniak uses Savage Blade. The Nostos Chigoe takes 90261 points of damage.

2000+TP
Baniak uses Savage Blade. The Chaos Steward takes 86068 points of damage.
Baniak uses Savage Blade. The Chaos Steward takes 78283 points of damage.
Baniak uses Savage Blade. The Chaos Steward takes 84272 points of damage.

3000TP 4th Floor SoulVoice added
Baniak uses Savage Blade. The Nostos Rarab takes 87527 points of damage.
Baniak uses Savage Blade. The Nostos Rarab takes 85273 points of damage.
Baniak uses Savage Blade. The Nostos Rarab takes 84196 points of damage.
Baniak uses Savage Blade. The Nostos Rarab takes 82047 points of damage.

This is DRG/dnc with KC offhand with one of the highest WS frequency in the game, even if you hold to 2000TP.

Negative, everything fotia on/off was same set, no wsd, no pdl, Mpu/Cento.

I'm very pleased overall, only disappointed in the fact it's likely another WS leaning heavily on TP bonus. Game has this weird reluctance to produce multi hits that perform well outside of TP scale abuse or all-the-buffs.

This last ruthless was at 1%, can see how front loaded it is.


Yep.

Can you give us a comparison to how much damage rudra's storm did under the same conditions then? If ruthless strike is completely front loaded and puts everything into just the first hit, and you're getting 62-65k damage returns at max tp that isn't terribly different from what twashtar would produce.

Ok so the data we gathered suggest very low WSC and very high fTP at 3000. Im talking about something like 20% DEX/AGI/CHR and 20+ http://fTP.

3000TP Ruthless first hit only were avg 24559 spread here was only 3%, so it could be slightly less in reality
3000TP with 4 additional hits (3main hand and one with Cento) were 28223

This means 4.0 fTP from 3 additional hits were around 4k damage total. If you take away base damage of the weapon and unfortunately ignore fSTR (because we dont know specific value here, but it was low or neutral probably. Either way it wouldnt change the conclusion by much anyway), then we would need only ~203 base damage from WSC (and thats assuming PDL aftermath is only 5%), which is very low and based on your stats would only require 20% DEX/AGI/CHR. This also mean 1.0fTP with main hand is like ~1200, which puts first hit fTP at 3000TP at 20.

He only did Rudra with Prime WS I think in the test yesterday and only did like 3 with unknown TP value and unknown gear (he had TP macro for ruthless, so I can see TP in the log from yesterday, but Rudra's were done manually I think, to lower mob HP, or by mistake)