I would place myself under only you and the Apocalypse DRK in that fight.
Ejiin said:
Code
Bokura 207575 19.38 %
Ejiin 276956 25.86 %
This DRK was 33% behind this WAR
You would be behind DRK and around 50% behind WAR.
Sounds right.
I dont have a problem with spelling my thought correctly.
I wrote
Atoreis said:
but in realtity WAR will do like 50% more dmg.
DAMAGE not % on parse.
Just because a certain player plays X job doesnt mean he will end up in X position in the parse, there are many factors as to what can come into play such as skill, gear, terrible support, etc.
I mean I have yet to see anyone outparse Zapxthebest on DRK in VW, and from what you seem to be suggesting does that mean that if someone comes WAR they would somehow automatically parse X% higher than him?
Please elaborate on what you mean by being able to always parse X% higher than what X job would.
Also this isn't supposed to be an argument on how much X-job outparses BLU, its about justifying why BLU should not be wasted as proc *** when they can add a significant amount to the fight.
I could take your argument and say, when compared to most BLU's, any run of the mill Ukon is a better party slot. If this is coming down to statements like that, then it's got pretty pointless.
The real point of contention is what Ragin'Ato is presenting and what I brought up, which is the claim that BLU's white damage was somehow greater than a MNKs (Whose white damage accounts for 50% of their split)
So again, if the argument has now become something akin to all jobs are good if played right, then that is easily dismissed by the law of averages and getting an ukon war.
This was not Proth's argument, and as such we are having this discussion.
Can you proc blue magic with Ukko's fury in VW? Remember a good BLU can DD fulltime and proc, and is a job you will almost always have in the alliance.
Can you proc blue magic with Ukko's fury in VW? Remember a good BLU can DD fulltime and proc, and is a job you will almost always have in the alliance.
extremely vulnerable to earth blue magic? i got this
I think I need write very simple sentences on few forums or else me words will be interpretated on 1k possible meanings.
Marquiss ->
1. Equally skilled,buffed,non interrupted by doign a proc players.
2. None is talking about worthy of BLU in VW ally because its obvious. We talking solely about DD output
Good player will usually destroy avg player w/e jobs they are playing.
Yesterday I used Jin.Gsword on my DRK with 354 skill (I needed to equip af3+2 hands to even be able to do Resolution). I parsed first with 27% and 2nd was 90Ukon WAR with 17%. I won only because i can play very aggressively not because I DRK with gimped skill is better DD.
So any run of the mill BLU vs run of the mill Ukon, who gets the COR party slot?
So COR WHM WAR MNK DRK SAM?
Why not be efficient and keep the WHM in another party, or just like you know... bring 2 CORs? I do admit that some people find using temps oh so hard.
So any run of the mill BLU vs run of the mill Ukon, who gets the COR party slot?
So COR WHM WAR MNK DRK SAM?
Why not be efficient and keep the WHM in another party, or just like you know... bring 2 CORs? I do admit that some people find using temps oh so hard.
I always put BRD COR in same DD pt, so only 4 spot open still.
does that mean that if someone comes WAR they would somehow automatically parse X% higher than him?
Does that mean Bokura should be able to parse the same numbers as his drk, when's hes stuck being paladin?
If you take someone with the same skill, same equip, and same playstyle (suspend disbelief for a minute) there is still going to be a job discrepancy. I'm terribly sorry that I provoked this entire debate but I still feel that if blu is that high on the parse, they are hindering the success of the group.
Let's say that you're doing the absolutely awful style shout group where they hold the VW mob for 7 minutes getting every single proc ever to cap before the DD's engage. In that case, with all the DD's engaging at once, and the proc'ing done; I entirely understand you being high up on the list.
However, let's say you're doing the past-hahava looking guy (name escapes me) with the Ejiin type group. All the DD's pop temps at the start, and everyone is expected to get their proc's in during the 2 minutes the mob is still alive to refresh temps and stagger. It's EV-water and you have light/fire set. Now you take a minute to set spells and cooldowns. If the mob becomes unstaggered, you're the ***. If the DD's have to turn and wait for you to get stagger and cap light, you're the ***. If you boost your epeen slightly by ignoring staggers and sort-of almost registering on the parse, no one will remember (assuming they even notice).
I would just rather do my job properly and never let anyone's expectations of me down. If someone asks me to come to something as drk for an extra stun, yes I dps and try to multitask, but I make sure my first priority is stunning. You bet your *** that I'm dead or mid-use on echo drops.
I totally do not want to come off as hating on blu (and i know that's probably a lost cause at this point). I am just trying to convey one of the reasons parsing VW irritates me. The second someone says "this was the parse from the first run" people get all uptight about the run being parsed now, and the next 3 fights get a little bit sloppy. The worst thing is that a thread like this will cause at least a dozen "meh" blue mages to try and win a parse. Next thing you know I'll be on a pil run where people are shouting at someone to get EV or HQ proc to break shield and the blu is pretending he doesn't see it because he wants someone else to proc and not interupt his attempt to compensate for who knows what.
I guess my tl;dr is: make doing your job your priority and dd'ing your perogative.
If you did that without endangering the groups success (read: easy, quick win) then kudos. Sadly, if i wanted something to register on the parse ,who doesn't prioritize proc'ing, i'd have brung a second war, etc.
does that mean that if someone comes WAR they would somehow automatically parse X% higher than him?
Does that mean Bokura should be able to parse the same numbers as his drk, when's hes stuck being paladin?
If you take someone with the same skill, same equip, and same playstyle (suspend disbelief for a minute) there is still going to be a job discrepancy. I'm terribly sorry that I provoked this entire debate but I still feel that if blu is that high on the parse, they are hindering the success of the group.
Let's say that you're doing the absolutely awful style shout group where they hold the VW mob for 7 minutes getting every single proc ever to cap before the DD's engage. In that case, with all the DD's engaging at once, and the proc'ing done; I entirely understand you being high up on the list.
However, let's say you're doing the past-hahava looking guy (name escapes me) with the Ejiin type group. All the DD's pop temps at the start, and everyone is expected to get their proc's in during the 2 minutes the mob is still alive to refresh temps and stagger. It's EV-water and you have light/fire set. Now you take a minute to set spells and cooldowns. If the mob becomes unstaggered, you're the ***. If the DD's have to turn and wait for you to get stagger and cap light, you're the ***. If you boost your epeen slightly by ignoring staggers and sort-of almost registering on the parse, no one will remember (assuming they even notice).
I would just rather do my job properly and never let anyone's expectations of me down. If someone asks me to come to something as drk for an extra stun, yes I dps and try to multitask, but I make sure my first priority is stunning. You bet your *** that I'm dead or mid-use on echo drops.
I totally do not want to come off as hating on blu (and i know that's probably a lost cause at this point). I am just trying to convey one of the reasons parsing VW irritates me. The second someone says "this was the parse from the first run" people get all uptight about the run being parsed now, and the next 3 fights get a little bit sloppy. The worst thing is that a thread like this will cause at least a dozen "meh" blue mages to try and win a parse. Next thing you know I'll be on a pil run where people are shouting at someone to get EV or HQ proc to break shield and the blu is pretending he doesn't see it because he wants someone else to proc and not interupt his attempt to compensate for who knows what.
Well thats where new BLU standards come in, if you can't proc while DDing then you are just being lazy. You expect everyone else to play to a high standard, well now BLU is getting redefined into a legitamate DD/proc role.
And at this point it just sounds like you're trying to hold onto the "must set all procs" mindset when it is really unnessessary and silly at this point.
And if your group needs a proc that bad and they cant wait for the 1 min timer then obviously as was said before something wrong with them.
does that mean that if someone comes WAR they would somehow automatically parse X% higher than him?
Does that mean Bokura should be able to parse the same numbers as his drk, when's hes stuck being paladin? If you take someone with the same skill, same equip, and same playstyle (suspend disbelief for a minute) there is still going to be a job discrepancy. I'm terribly sorry that I provoked this entire debate but I still feel that if blu is that high on the parse, they are hindering the success of the group. Let's say that you're doing the absolutely awful style shout group where they hold the VW mob for 7 minutes getting every single proc ever to cap before the DD's engage. In that case, with all the DD's engaging at once, and the proc'ing done; I entirely understand you being high up on the list. However, let's say you're doing the past-hahava looking guy (name escapes me) with the Ejiin type group. All the DD's pop temps at the start, and everyone is expected to get their proc's in during the 2 minutes the mob is still alive to refresh temps and stagger. It's EV-water and you have light/fire set. Now you take a minute to set spells and cooldowns. If the mob becomes unstaggered, you're the ***. If the DD's have to turn and wait for you to get stagger and cap light, you're the ***. If you boost your epeen slightly by ignoring staggers and sort-of almost registering on the parse, no one will remember (assuming they even notice). I would just rather do my job properly and never let anyone's expectations of me down. If someone asks me to come to something as drk for an extra stun, yes I dps and try to multitask, but I make sure my first priority is stunning. You bet your *** that I'm dead or mid-use on echo drops. I totally do not want to come off as hating on blu (and i know that's probably a lost cause at this point). I am just trying to convey one of the reasons parsing VW irritates me. The second someone says "this was the parse from the first run" people get all uptight about the run being parsed now, and the next 3 fights get a little bit sloppy. The worst thing is that a thread like this will cause at least a dozen "meh" blue mages to try and win a parse. Next thing you know I'll be on a pil run where people are shouting at someone to get EV or HQ proc to break shield and the blu is pretending he doesn't see it because he wants someone else to proc and not interupt his attempt to compensate for who knows what.
Well thats where new BLU standards come in, if you can't proc while DDing then you are just being lazy. You expect everyone else to play to a high standard, well now BLU is getting redefined into a legitamate DD/proc role. And at this point it just sounds like you're trying to hold onto the "must set all procs" mindset when it is really unnessessary and silly at this point. And if your group needs a proc that bad and they cant wait for the 1 min timer then obviously as was said before something wrong with them.
I can respect this response. I can totally see your point of view. However, if the plan were ever to fail (even 1/20 runs); I will always remember you as the blu who failed me when I needed a proc. I don't mean that as I'm vindictive, or hating on you because you're blu.... I won't forget the war who doesn't bother bringing axe to VW or the rdm who doesn't have all their merits when we needed them. Sure 99/100 times those people will get away with it but people remember the 1 time, not the 99. I have a notepad next to my pc that has a list with things like "soandso- came nin and said they "never learned ichi spells" or "drk who refused to swap to scythe even though people repeatedly told them - spoke english".
I guess I'm saying that I value the players that I can count on to always do their job over the ones who do lots of damage. I value the ones who can do both even more. If I did VW with you and you always did both? I'd be your BFF.
I understand where you're coming from, and keep a list of so and so player too lol. But yeah in the event that BLU procs are overwhelming I go full proc mode.
If you're so inept that you can't do two things at once, it isn't my problem. I, myself, can DD and still perform my procs.
And you know what, I'm fine with the level of ignorance going around in this thread. It means it'll take longer for SE to nerf my job because it's actually ridiculous and worth something now. So keep on being blind to the fact that BLU might be able to shift the power balance now, staying in the dark doesn't change the fact that good BLUs like myself and Marquiss exist and make our job shine just as well as any other DD.
If that's directed at me, I never said YOU can't do it or that "I" couldn't do it, but I don't feel that most of the population of blu can do it. I also think that it's irresponsible to paint that picture for the average blu mage. If not, pardon my assumption.
I also feel the need to address the MNK vs. BLU issue, since it seems people are having a hard time seeing that BLU is on par with or can possibly exceed MNK, particularly after the VS crit rate nerf, but that isn't a major decrease in MNK's DoT.
First let's focus on crit rate.
BLU easily caps dDEX, something that MNK can't claim to do. This heavily favors BLU right off the bat on both TP and WS.
BLU has a moderately higher average attacks per round than a MNK. This may be hard for you to grasp, however it is most assuredly the case. These extra attacks per round all favor Almace's Aftermath as well, boosting potential white damage significantly if used properly.
Chant du Cygne and Victory Smite are about equal in terms of relative power, until you look at WSC. Chant du Cygne has a small edge when it comes to DEX being its modifier, again favoring BLU due to a natural availability of DEX gear allowing to cap dDEX while simultaneously boosting WSC.
MNK has slightly higher DoT than a BLU, very slightly. The MNK will win if only accounting for base damage and critical hits, however once we take into account the fact that BLU and MNK have nearly identical attack delay, the fact that BLU has a superior attack/round which contributes itself to the Almace thus boosting the effects of Almace's Aftermath significantly, and BLU's still high critical hit rate even without Impetus, the gap is closed by a significant amount, and BLU has the ability to overtake the MNK in some situations.
BLU's superior TP gain. Due to BLU's still steady attack speed and superior attacks per round, on top of higher TP per hit due to Store TP, BLU will have a naturally higher weaponskill frequency than MNK.
And now for the elephant in the room, MNK has access to Impetus. When capped, Impetus provides +100 attack, +50% critical hit rate, and +50% critical hit damage. While that's significant, due to hitrate caps, it's inevitable that this will be wiped multiple times in a fight. Providing luck is on your side, a fully charged Impetus will be a deciding factor in whether or not the MNK pulls ahead of the BLU. However...
With BLU's capped dDEX, amongst other things which end up bringing BLU's critical hit rate to 55% thereabouts, superior weaponskill frequency, equal or superior white damage, equal or moderately worse WS damage (pending Impetus), and BLU's favorable attacks per round and utilization of Aftermath, the gap between these two jobs shrinks very significantly.
MNK:
Fist dmg: 52+12+35=99
Kickdmg: 45+8+52=105
Kick rate: 25%
DA rate: 21%
TA rate: 3%
Fists per round: 2.52
ODD: 50% for one hand and 1 attack per round
Base dmg per round (before pDIF): ~325
Delay with marches(gjallahorn(95) or langleik)/haste: 106.2
Impetus boost(Best possibility with 95% hit rate and 100hits during fight): 37.5%
Impetus boost (worse case with capped hit rate): 10%
Impetus avg with capped hit rate: 23%
Crit rate: 10%(merit+floor)+23%+5%(neck)=38%
Avg crit dmg+: 23%
Total white DPS: ((325*60/106.2)*0.38*1.23)+((325*60/106.2)*0.62)=85.82+113.84=199.66
BLU
Sword dmg: 61+14(kinda hard to cap that high fSTR but lets assume its capped)=75
DA rate: 10(/war)+3(Toci)+5(brutal)+3(epona)+3(atheling)+2(twilight)
TA rate: 11%
hits per round: 2.9
ODD: 50% for one hand
Base dmg per round (before pDIF): 272
Delay marches/haste and 30%DW: 102.41
Crit rate: 25%(merit+dDexcap)+5%(neck)+(3% feet+legs)=33%
Avg crit dmg+: 4%
Total white DPS: ((272*60/102.4)*0.33*1.04)+((272*60/102.4)*0.67)=54.7+106.8=161.5
199.6/161.5=~1.23
MNK has ~23% advantage with white damage before attack which will favor MNK even further.
BLU might have higher WS frequency but also lower avg WS(at VW).
Anyone having success with their BLU when they have nothing to proc or are there for placebo effect? I for sure am doing my best to make the most out of something alot of people write off and hopefully people will learn that one of the most versatile jobs in the game can also excel if effort is put into it.
So please do post how you go about what you can do and how you go about it, and hopefully this job would get shined in a better light. :D
From a DD perspective this would be a small sample parse from a qilin to kinda try to get this thread started.
Current situation is im stuck in the mage party so only buffs I have is /war, red curry bun, and temps. The WARx2, DRK (Goodjuice), and MNK are in the COR party if I recall correctly.
