Most Worthless Moves In FFXI?
Most Worthless Moves In FFXI?
The thing is if you introduce a feature as unintuitive as bubble placement, don't explain it and you can do just fine not knowing or ignoring it it's not surprising a lot of people don't know how to do it when it's required.
Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
AF BPs may have fallen to the wayside but they had use:
korolokka burns
Ezmode CoP missions
That pirate chart fight in valkurm
Thats off the top of my head
korolokka burns
Ezmode CoP missions
That pirate chart fight in valkurm
Thats off the top of my head
There's a difference between something being outdated vs being worthless. It may be worthless for most modern applications (mostly because players are too lazy to use lesser meta/niche abilities to fulfill tasks, but sometimes the move is not good anymore). Also a difference between something being worthless and the player not knowing how to properly use it in each situation. Most players won't include a BST, PUP, or SMN into their group unless the meta shifts from the top strategy to include these. Before Aminon, people didn't respect Dancer. I still hear people today say "this job sucks, I only play it for Sortie". they have no clue how to play the job and never needed to, so to them it was a trash job. Moments later they ask "hey, how much defense down does Box Step do?" Being clueless about the game is not the fault of the game.
This is probably a function of not many high-end players or groups bring along a very good SMN. Just search Papesse's name in player search and read his forum posts about ways he's used SMN and applied them to even modern content. Or go search Atomos in the wiki and it will be clear instantly how useful the spell can be.
I just used Drain Samba II last night on my THF while farming in Sheol A. Dropped the healer and evasion pulled a group of non-magic casting mobs. Most attacks are evaded, but the few that get through are quickly recovered with samba and THF's fast attack speed. Brought a RDM trust for haste, dia3 and the occasional cure if I got into yellow HP (which is when they start casting cure4 on you), but didn't need a healer trust at all, even for A1 Agon Beastmen. If it got bad, I could waltz myself. Haste Samba is not needed, might as well use something else. Not an amazing use case, but if you innovate a little bit, you can make lesser desirable moves work just fine.
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
I agree that Atomos has use. Although I've never seen it used, it does not make it worthless.
This is probably a function of not many high-end players or groups bring along a very good SMN. Just search Papesse's name in player search and read his forum posts about ways he's used SMN and applied them to even modern content. Or go search Atomos in the wiki and it will be clear instantly how useful the spell can be.
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Drain Samba is used a lot at low levels before Haste Samba, so it has a lot of use on a subjob until 90 and until 45 for Dancer main.
I just used Drain Samba II last night on my THF while farming in Sheol A. Dropped the healer and evasion pulled a group of non-magic casting mobs. Most attacks are evaded, but the few that get through are quickly recovered with samba and THF's fast attack speed. Brought a RDM trust for haste, dia3 and the occasional cure if I got into yellow HP (which is when they start casting cure4 on you), but didn't need a healer trust at all, even for A1 Agon Beastmen. If it got bad, I could waltz myself. Haste Samba is not needed, might as well use something else. Not an amazing use case, but if you innovate a little bit, you can make lesser desirable moves work just fine.
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Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
AF BPs may have fallen to the wayside but they had use:
I know several LSs that still use AFAC BP burn for aeonics. All T3s and T4s.
Pretty sure "AF BPs" means the special pacts gated behind AF like Tidal Wave, Diamond Dust, Howling Moon. They are almost useless now, and I doubt anyone is using them for aeonics..
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Dodik said: »
Oooh ok, I misunderstood.
Perfect Defense is still used, no?
Perfect Defense is still used, no?
Very much so. If you do Tumult Curator, it is the next best thing you can do to get through its Astral Flows in last form, after having a Rune Fencer with One For All. Also, as Thorny said, I specifically mentioned the blood pacts that only become available to use when Astral Flow is active.
This is the updated list:
1. Charm / Gauge
2. Modus Veritas
3. Unlimited / Flashy / Stealth Shot
4. Assassin's Charge / Warrior's Charge
5. Concentric Pulse
6. Tranquility / Equanimity
7. Smiting Breath
8. Scholar's / Avenger's / Courser's / Choral Roll
9. Absorb-CHR
10. Aspir Samba
11. Odin
12. Astral Flow Blood Pacts (minus Clarsach Call)
13. Level ? Holy
Asura.Melliny said: »
You could add Brazen rush to that list too, since warrior has so many ways to cap DA rate with the gear we have available. The only thing you'll get is a couple extra DA procs on weaponskills, and that's pretty irrelevant. For a 1hr it's in the same camp as eagle eye shot.
Assassin's charge is the same thing. You actually LOSE DPS by activating it bercause of the JA activation timer. It was meant for the 75 era where we attacked slower (thief couldn't even cap gear haste at 75) and didn't have the natural multi attack rate we do today. It's scaled so poorly that meriting it is actually harmful.
Quote:
Warrior's Charge isn't all that useful.
Assassin's charge is the same thing. You actually LOSE DPS by activating it bercause of the JA activation timer. It was meant for the 75 era where we attacked slower (thief couldn't even cap gear haste at 75) and didn't have the natural multi attack rate we do today. It's scaled so poorly that meriting it is actually harmful.
But even when you have that gear, in the Job Point category, full 20/20 gets it to +80atk that is affected by every buff you have. While not the biggest boost, it's far from useless imo.
Also Re: Warrior's and Assassin's Charge:
Again, before you have tons of gear to make them obsolete, they can both be used to force the multi hits on Weapon Skills.
They can also be used out of combat and last a full minute, and you can do them with things like Jump/High Jump to force higher TP gain.
It's still not amazing, but you can use them as pre-pull to ensure more TP on your first attack round.
And then my favorite use for them: Forcing multi-hit on single hit WS, chiefly Relic WS. Particularly during killshot trials. Anything that lessens the pain of kill shot trials is not worthless in my book, even if it's only by a razor thin margin.
Run's "Swipe" is pretty useless as far as I can tell.
Any situation where you can try to MB with it you will be tanking, and swapping to full a Magic Attack / MB set can prove problematic more often than not. Plus its only one Rune. Lunge at least can do some damage.
Any situation where you can try to MB with it you will be tanking, and swapping to full a Magic Attack / MB set can prove problematic more often than not. Plus its only one Rune. Lunge at least can do some damage.
Hard disagree. Swipe is used a lot for magic burst Sortie strategies. It's an easy 15k+ dmg, if geared right.
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Dodik said: »
Hard disagree. Swipe is used a lot for magic burst Sortie strategies. It's an easy 15k+ dmg, if geared right.
I don't really do sortie, maybe that's why I think its trash haha.
See also: Odyssey bosses. Swipe/Lunge can slap with decent gear and even more with Rayke/Gambit. I've seen 90k+ MB Lunges. Not sure about Swipe, I don't have that much macro space so I don't use it very often...It's still reasonably potent when I do use it though. Separate cooldowns means no reason not to use both, especially when lots of chains are firing off.
Shiva.Thorny said: »
Pretty sure "AF BPs" means the special pacts gated behind AF like Tidal Wave, Diamond Dust, Howling Moon. They are almost useless now, and I doubt anyone is using them for aeonics..
That's accurate. Also another good example of moves that may have once had practical uses, but are now completely obsolete. Back when we only had one "2 hour" SP ability and SMN only had Astral Flow, the AF-exclusive blood pacts had a place: you had your 3min duration to use the AF-exclusive BPs and/or the AF-only avatars. Well illustrated in the popular old CoP/Promyvion SMN strats, where the SMNs often used their Astral Flow exclusive BPs like Judgment Bolt.
Two things changed that:
1) Job points buffed Astral Flow effect by giving avatar stat+
2) SP2s were created and Astral CONDUIT became a thing
So from that point on, Astral Flow became something to save and pair with Conduit, for the stat+ to help improve the BP you spam while under 0 cooldown.
AF is still strong because Alexander & Cait Sith still have good AF uses.
I don't think you want to get into "which BPs aren't good anymore" because the same thing applies to..Stone, Stone 2, Stone 3, Poison 1, etc...
There are an endless list of abilities and spells that get out-classed by others. Nobody's going to use Water II from Leviathan, no ***. It's not an endgame BP, it's for level 20 SMN to use, not for Omen bosses.
Could they make the AF bloodpacts stronger? Definitely, and maybe they should. At the end of the day though, AF is still useful so it's not really relevant for this discussion, unless you want to go over every bad BP.
I don't think you want to get into "which BPs aren't good anymore" because the same thing applies to..Stone, Stone 2, Stone 3, Poison 1, etc...
There are an endless list of abilities and spells that get out-classed by others. Nobody's going to use Water II from Leviathan, no ***. It's not an endgame BP, it's for level 20 SMN to use, not for Omen bosses.
Could they make the AF bloodpacts stronger? Definitely, and maybe they should. At the end of the day though, AF is still useful so it's not really relevant for this discussion, unless you want to go over every bad BP.
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I agree that getting into which specific lower tier spells or BP are bad is not really that meaningful for the reasons above.
But as an overall category, the AF-exclusive magical BPs are sort of a special class. And because ALL of them are useless now, it feels a little more fair to me to call out the entire category as useless. IMO, that's more similar to not just saying that the one specific spell "Stone 2" is useless, but that ALL spells in the category of "elemental magic" are useless (obviously untrue). Or every Ancient Magic, every Threnody, every elemental Ninjutsu, etc...
Oh and that made me think of another useless (and very unique) thing that I don't believe has been mentioned yet: METEOR!
But as an overall category, the AF-exclusive magical BPs are sort of a special class. And because ALL of them are useless now, it feels a little more fair to me to call out the entire category as useless. IMO, that's more similar to not just saying that the one specific spell "Stone 2" is useless, but that ALL spells in the category of "elemental magic" are useless (obviously untrue). Or every Ancient Magic, every Threnody, every elemental Ninjutsu, etc...
Oh and that made me think of another useless (and very unique) thing that I don't believe has been mentioned yet: METEOR!
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Oh and that made me think of another useless (and very unique) thing that I don't believe has been mentioned yet: METEOR!
You take that back. My friend uses Meteor to 1-shot the floor boss on Nyzul floor 100 / 20.
Maybe you could 1shot them with some other spell, IDK, but he always does it with Meteor and it's glorious.
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Need to see like some new Peach Power style fight that relies upon bringing multiple BLMs for team-up Meeeee-teeeee-ooooooor! Was actually a pretty fun idea for a spell mechanic.
Has anyone mentioned subscribing?
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Do job traits count? RNG’s Alertness and NIN’s Stealth are so worthless that no one is quite sure what they do.
Shichishito said: »
Mavii said: »
It's been 20 years and Hydro Shot probably hasn't been even theoretically useful to a single player in that time.
Since then they've generally been more consistent about making spells useful. Sure there's the occasional Blazing Bound, but it was one of the first spells for Dual Wield and I love them doing weird ***like MDB for damage or Regurgitation's everything occasionally. It's interesting, games should do more weird off the wall stuff like that. BB falling out of use isn't a bad thing either, old spells don't need to stay relevant forever.
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
Despite the earlier talk about people abusing Modus back when it still worked, I'm not even sure that's true. Iirc someone posted a proof of concept video where they almost killed AV with like 6 Modus and SE nerfed the ability before they managed to kill it that way?
https://kanican.livejournal.com/41053.html#cutid1
https://kanican.livejournal.com/41053.html#cutid1
Siren.Dekoda said: »
Do job traits count? RNG’s Alertness and NIN’s Stealth are so worthless that no one is quite sure what they do.
They turn RNG more alert and NIN more stealthy
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Brave Hero Glenn
As much as I love you froggy, you’re useless.
As much as I love you froggy, you’re useless.
Giving us a mandragoa pet and then giving us a meme version much later, and with worst stats, is up there.
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