Phoenix.Iocus said: »
Domain ring for some extra regain in quiet times with Boost.
Fake monk spotted! ;)
Most Worthless Moves In FFXI?
Most Worthless Moves In FFXI?
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
9. Scholar's / Avenger's / Blitzer's / Courser's / Choral Roll
SimonSes said: »
Phoenix.Iocus said: »
Domain ring for some extra regain in quiet times with Boost.
Fake monk spotted! ;)
SimonSes said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
I don't know enough about BLU to talk about that. If someone can back up what Iocus is saying about that, I'd consider adding everything stated.
I already commented on that. Chain Affinity can't be considered bad or useless by any means. It's part of the bumba V25 strategy for example. I wouldn't consider efflux to be useless too. It's good to do damage on piercing weak mobs, especially the ones with slashing resist. There is also at least one good use case for Efflux and that's using it for Tourbillion to increase def down duration.
Yeah CA or Efflux are useable, the comment is about physical blue magic without them being highly diminished.
Asura.Kuumihumi said: »
Fenrir.Skarwind said: »
Last Resort merits are some bull ***.
IIRC it's the only merit that makes a penalty worse
Each merit gains an attack bonus AND a defense penalty.
WTF is that crap?
"Last Resort Effect Increase attacks by 2 percent, but lower defense by 2 percent"
Diabolic Eye is also kind of ***to me. Max HP Down sucks.
IIRC it's the only merit that makes a penalty worse
Each merit gains an attack bonus AND a defense penalty.
WTF is that crap?
"Last Resort Effect Increase attacks by 2 percent, but lower defense by 2 percent"
Diabolic Eye is also kind of ***to me. Max HP Down sucks.
I like defender on /WAR!
Aspir Samba realy is underwhelming, maybe there are some latent effect items that need to drain 1 MP/tic and losing the samba slot to aspir is better than losing a song slot to ballade?
Phoenix.Iocus said: »
I'm absolutely not a monk at all, but it can still be used for it.
What I meant is that item, that grants regain with Boost is belt, not ring. Unless you meant something completely different.
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Aspir Samba is an interesting one to consider. Dancer doesn't use MP, and other jobs with MP either aren't meleeing or have other ways to get MP.
Also, has anyone else ever used Blitzer's roll for anything? I remember reading that it actually hurts TP flow.
Phoenix.Iocus said: »
9. Scholar's / Avenger's / Blitzer's / Courser's / Choral Roll
Blitzer's you can use for Tenzen. I run RDM and COR for beits. You don't have to wait around for trusts to decide if they want to give you march. Capped delay for enspells is the only thing that matters other than getting off a leaden salute before he yaegs.
Blitzer's you can use for Tenzen. I run RDM and COR for beits. You don't have to wait around for trusts to decide if they want to give you march. Capped delay for enspells is the only thing that matters other than getting off a leaden salute before he yaegs.
Also, has anyone else ever used Blitzer's roll for anything? I remember reading that it actually hurts TP flow.
Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
Im sorry but who is puttin CA/Efflux on the same useless tier as Modus Veritas and Unlimited Shot??
TBH I use it so rarely that I usually have the extra TP befor I found the correct macro.
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
10. Sange
Sange isn't entirely useless. It can be used to hit Flying monsters (like Ouryu or the Escha Gargoyle) or mobs that use perfect dodge, allowing you to get TP when they otherwise would evade you. You can then use like a magic ws to deal damage during PD (I actually did that this month during ambu while qutrub used PD). I don't have it unlocked because I don't like carrying shurikens besides the one for Daken, but its still a slight dps increase to use it vs not. Still a bad move, but not totally worthless.
While that may be true, with 3 pieces of equipment you can reach 99% and not consume any shurikens in the process.
54% natively + 25%(jse neck), 10% relic body, 10% artifact hands.
And if you have the ability to augment Kuni, that's another 5 potentially.
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Aspir Samba is an interesting one to consider. Dancer doesn't use MP, and other jobs with MP either aren't meleeing or have other ways to get MP.
Aspir Samba is seemingly useless in more ways than one. I once used it in a fight to help a DRK get MP back (he was also refreshed), not sure if he was using Schere Earring. But then quickly realized how useless of an ability it is, because it also conflicts with Endark II's proccing. I still haven't come up with a good use for it, maybe if DNC+BLU are duoing and the BLU doesn't have Tizona? You have to dig really deep to find a use case for it, unless im just not that sophisticated.
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Also, has anyone else ever used Blitzer's roll for anything? I remember reading that it actually hurts TP flow.
It does lower your TP gain because it reduces your delay. You could use it if you were ever in an event where you don't have trusts but need to cap delay reduction, but most people just have extra DW gear they carry. The Blitzer/Enspell strat mentioned above was interesting, though I don't think Blitzer goes beyond the 80% attack speed cap, so not sure how that does anything if you have the appropriate DW.
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Shiva.Myamoto said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
10. Sange
Sange isn't entirely useless. It can be used to hit Flying monsters (like Ouryu or the Escha Gargoyle) or mobs that use perfect dodge, allowing you to get TP when they otherwise would evade you. You can then use like a magic ws to deal damage during PD (I actually did that this month during ambu while qutrub used PD). I don't have it unlocked because I don't like carrying shurikens besides the one for Daken, but its still a slight dps increase to use it vs not. Still a bad move, but not totally worthless.
While that may be true, with 3 pieces of equipment you can reach 99% and not consume any shurikens in the process.
54% natively + 25%(jse neck), 10% relic body, 10% artifact hands.
And if you have the ability to augment Kuni, that's another 5 potentially.
You absolutely are not going to get me to defend Sange under any circumstances. The move is terrible, but I would argue getting that level of Daken is probably reserved for better geared players. Nearly nobody is carrying the relic body and AF hands for that purpose, and I doubt a weaker NIN has Kunimitsu and +2 neck ranked. It could still be a dps increase for a weaker-geared NIN because it increases their TP speed. But the move is a bad, like I said earlier, and once you get a top geared NIN, the move is worthless.
Eh...IDK about worthless. There are MUCH better TP pieces you could be wearing on NIN than sitting in relic body and AF hands, even if you have them. I have removed them from my engaged set entirely because they're squishy and provide hardly any (if any) TP gain over wearing Malignance, for example. Malignance gives bonus TP to all of your swings plus bonus TP to your shuriken throw.
If you're wearing Malignance and activate Sange, it increases your TP gain. Hell, even if you WANT to wear the JSE pieces to always have 100% Daken, you might as well use Sange and have an alternate TP set while Sange is up.
This, of course, assumes you aren't using Innin, Yonin, or Ninjutsu merits.
It's not GREAT (and I don't have it merited) but it's definitely far from useless, shuriken costs aside.
If you're wearing Malignance and activate Sange, it increases your TP gain. Hell, even if you WANT to wear the JSE pieces to always have 100% Daken, you might as well use Sange and have an alternate TP set while Sange is up.
This, of course, assumes you aren't using Innin, Yonin, or Ninjutsu merits.
It's not GREAT (and I don't have it merited) but it's definitely far from useless, shuriken costs aside.
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
but most people just have extra DW gear they carry
If I solo I choose trusts to make sure that haste, at least in theory, is capped and simply ignore the constant trust BRD fk ups.
If I end up in a melee party with uncapped haste I don't want any half assed band-aid, I want everyone present to consciously experience how much of a suck uncapped haste is.
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Shichishito said: »
it's weak but has a purpose
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Yes I misspoke when I said worthless in my previous comment about sange. Original post I said it was a bad move with a purpose.
I don't know, you can start going down some big rabbit holes if you start labeling bad moves with a purpose vs. worthless. All moves have a "purpose".
To circle back, Modus Veritas... Horrible move... but has a purpose... despite it being ***and inaccurate... it still has a purpose.
A bad move is a worthless move lol plain and simple.
To circle back, Modus Veritas... Horrible move... but has a purpose... despite it being ***and inaccurate... it still has a purpose.
A bad move is a worthless move lol plain and simple.
Shichishito said: »
I made a case for chain affinity, it's weak but has a purpose, ghetto access to fusion property. Efflux on the other hand I can't see much value at all, if you're eager for those extra ~30 seconds of 13% more def down just wait a couple of swings for the TP or simply bring a BST.
TBH I use it so rarely that I usually have the extra TP befor I found the correct macro.
TBH I use it so rarely that I usually have the extra TP befor I found the correct macro.
Efflux doesnt use TP, so you can throw ~2000TP Tourbillion without using TP and save it for WS. I'm not even gonna start with argument "simply bring BST", because it's too stupid to discuss it. CA is not only access to fusion, but to on-demand skillchain step in general, which is once again used for BumbaV25 for example, but it can also close strong Darkness with Expiacion.
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Shiva.Myamoto said: »
To circle back, Modus Veritas... Horrible move... but has a purpose... despite it being ***and inaccurate... it still has a purpose.
Any half-*** SCH can hit a 5k Helix, so Modus already fails because of the 10k cap. If you cant break 5k, theres still a really high chance Modus will fail.
This is the textbook definition of useless and worthless.
ecliptic howl, frost armor, diamond storm, pavor nocturnus.
Asura.Frod said: »
ecliptic howl, frost armor, diamond storm, pavor nocturnus.
All of these seem to have some use, except probably Diamond Storm. Nothing is so evasive that it requires a -25 evasion debuff. I can see uses for the other three and I do not play Summoner.
Can anyone justify Diamond Storm for being anything more than worthless?
Potentially blocks evasion up tp moves, rare as those are these days
Shiva.Myamoto said: »
While that may be true, with 3 pieces of equipment you can reach 99% and not consume any shurikens in the process.
You're telling me that regular taken take priority over the Sange enforced dakens which activate (once per turn) when Sange is up?
This would mean that you can still benefit from the bonus Sange gives you, but without consuming any shuriken at all.
Still hard to defend Sange anyway, that ability was born wrong and SE never fixed it completely, alas.
Low amount of good shurikens, most of which can't be really "consumed" because of how hard/annoying it is to obtain them.
And then the last part is the fact that Daken relies on Ranged Accuracy, which is a pain because 99% of the rest of your gear will have melee accuracy and not Ranged Accuracy.
Honor March is one of the very very very few buffs what will provide both.
This brings you to the situation where, despite the native ~100 Acc hidden bonus Daken procs have, the overall Racc will fall around te 55% rate whereas your melee hits will be at the capped ~97.5% rate (99% for main, 95% for sub).
So yeah, despite me loving Daken, lots of things went wrong with them.
After defending Sange for the longest time, I finally removed it from my merit skills on NIN
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Asura.Sechs said: »
This brings you to the situation where, despite the native ~100 Acc hidden bonus Daken procs have, the overall Racc will fall around te 55% rate whereas your melee hits will be at the capped ~97.5% rate (99% for main, 95% for sub).
Sounds like a 50% FUA proc. Works as intendedTM!
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Asura.Sechs said: »
After defending Sange for the longest time, I finally removed it from my merit skills on NIN
My man!!!!
Yeah, f**k Sange. I used my "one-time only" item restore after throwing a Happo Shuriken +1 back when it was very hard to come by on my server and worth a lot.
SimonSes said: »
Efflux doesnt use TP, so you can throw ~2000TP Tourbillion without using TP and save it for WS.
SimonSes said: »
I'm not even gonna start with argument "simply bring BST", because it's too stupid to discuss it.
Maybe BST doesn't fit the bill for a particular gaol fight you're trying to base your argument on but for most of the cases of this scenario BST is a viable alternative for that purpose.
BST can also skillchain step on demand, they don't even have to sacrifice TP.
Just for the record, I'm not advocating for putting Chain Affinity on the completely worthless list, I occasionally use it myself for the SC option.
However it's awfully implemented due to it's TP consumption, long cooldown and weak physical spells in general and I think it needs a buff.
If they replaced Efflux on the other hand I probably wouldn't miss it at all.
Speaking of worthless list, what is this trying to accomplish? Convince SE to buff those spells and abilities, remove them from the game or replace them with something usefull?
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Also, has anyone else ever used Blitzer's roll for anything? I remember reading that it actually hurts TP flow.
Blitzer's is fine, it basically just works like Dual Wield (but as attack delay for all jobs, not just for people who are dual wielding). So, same deal as DW gear: if you're already at delay cap and you use it, it doesn't make you swing any faster and just costs you TP. If you are uncapped delay, it's a major buff.
Can be worth using on some (obviously non-optimal) setups, like maybe you have some rando 2nd/3rd party in an alliance that just has a COR and a couple melees and no way to cap haste via spells.
Asura.Sechs said: »
And then the last part is the fact that Daken relies on Ranged Accuracy, which is a pain because 99% of the rest of your gear will have melee accuracy and not Ranged Accuracy.
A lot of gear that is part of NIN's TP set nowadays has both acc and racc. Ashera, Su3, Malignance, Nyame, Empy/AF/Relic, Herculean, Adhemar, even Mummu attire which is lower grade has some ranged accuracy. The only sets of NIN garb that don't have racc are Tatenashi and Mpaca sets, the latter being an extremely oddball decision to not throw racc on there. Most accessories that have acc also have racc, like jse neck, ambu back, earrings like telos/crepuscular. Most, if not all Katanas have Ranged Accuracy on it. NIN also has A+ in Throwing. Not trying to derail or anything, but NIN is not hurting for Ranged Accuracy in their TP sets.
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Shiva.Myamoto said: ยป
While that may be true, with 3 pieces of equipment you can reach 99% and not consume any shurikens in the process.
Wait, wut?
You're telling me that regular taken take priority over the Sange enforced dakens which activate (once per turn) when Sange is up?
This would mean that you can still benefit from the bonus Sange gives you, but without consuming any shuriken at all.
While that may be true, with 3 pieces of equipment you can reach 99% and not consume any shurikens in the process.
Wait, wut?
You're telling me that regular taken take priority over the Sange enforced dakens which activate (once per turn) when Sange is up?
This would mean that you can still benefit from the bonus Sange gives you, but without consuming any shuriken at all.
They are making the case that Sange is kind of silly to make you have 100% shuriken throw rate, when you can wear the gear and get the same effect and not consume any ammo. Sange activation ignores Daken, and will always consume a shuriken every attack round, regardless of how much Daken you have. You can go out and test it easily: Ranked Tsuru/Kunimitsu/AF+3 hands/Relic+3 body/JSE+2 neck should put you at 114% Daken rate. Pop Sange, you will still consume ammo.
Shichishito said: »
What stops you from just saving up 2000TP or even 3000TP befor you cast Tourbillion, you keep the TP regardless of Efflux beeing active or not. The only thing that uses up TP on physical spells is Chain Affinity (part of what makes it so awful).
Ok I guess you don't know how blue magic works. Without CA or Efflux or SP, your physical blue magic spells are cast as 0TP. The amount of TP you have is irrelevant.
Shichishito said: »
Is it? If your goal is to reduce mob defense as far as possible and you have the choice between one job who can do it for 60-120 seconds depending on TP on a 10 minute - 1 hour timer and another job who can do it for 60-90 but independant of TP and reapply if needed then I think it's a viable argument.
Maybe BST doesn't fit the bill for a particular gaol fight you're trying to base your argument on but for most of the cases of this scenario BST is a viable alternative for that purpose.
BST can also skillchain step on demand, they don't even have to sacrifice TP.
Maybe BST doesn't fit the bill for a particular gaol fight you're trying to base your argument on but for most of the cases of this scenario BST is a viable alternative for that purpose.
BST can also skillchain step on demand, they don't even have to sacrifice TP.
It is stupid, because the point is to use what's available to you on current selected job more efficiently. You could literally turn around every discussion like that and say to bring different job, who can do the specific task even better.
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Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Asura.Frod said: »
ecliptic howl, frost armor, diamond storm, pavor nocturnus.
All of these seem to have some use, except probably Diamond Storm. Nothing is so evasive that it requires a -25 evasion debuff. I can see uses for the other three and I do not play Summoner.
Can anyone justify Diamond Storm for being anything more than worthless?
He made a good point about listing BP.
There is a difference between a bad and a worst move.
A bad move could be considered something useless.
A worst move could be considered a move thats not only useless but detrimental to the player.
For example the BST jas: are they useless? Kinda (they can still be used as a proc probably), but using them wont penalize the player more than the animation lock.
While BPs, for example, given they have shared timer, picking a bad BP means the player will be penalized with the timer till its available again, making it way more detrimental than a silly useless move.
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