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BGWiki - Issue Reporting Thread & FAQ
BGWiki - Issue Reporting Thread & FAQ
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Why does BGwiki still have pages dedicated to a private server on it? I know why they were originally put there, however Spicy isn't there anymore so why are they still part of the wiki?
Can't these be removed since this is effectively an endorsement of illegal servers? not like anyone uses those pages worth a damn anyway. It's a retail wiki, so why have them there at all?
Anyone that cares about this game enough to put effort into it, as wiki editors do should not be seen as endorsing private servers when the game is still being supported (even if it's just by leaving those pages to exist). I know this is probably one of those things nobody brings up so it just gets ignored, so I'm bringing it up.
I am aware they are not linked anywhere on the main pages, so it's not that big of a deal but it's the principle of the thing. This is up there with promoting RMT sites or something, or having a wiki page dedicated to buying gil and getting away with it.
If people have a lot of respect for something, then stuff like this should not be part of it.
Can't these be removed since this is effectively an endorsement of illegal servers? not like anyone uses those pages worth a damn anyway. It's a retail wiki, so why have them there at all?
Anyone that cares about this game enough to put effort into it, as wiki editors do should not be seen as endorsing private servers when the game is still being supported (even if it's just by leaving those pages to exist). I know this is probably one of those things nobody brings up so it just gets ignored, so I'm bringing it up.
I am aware they are not linked anywhere on the main pages, so it's not that big of a deal but it's the principle of the thing. This is up there with promoting RMT sites or something, or having a wiki page dedicated to buying gil and getting away with it.
If people have a lot of respect for something, then stuff like this should not be part of it.
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I don't think it's really bait, there's a legitimate argument that the wiki probably shouldn't be used for private server content. Unfortunately, the wiki is a private entity, and what they allow on it is entirely their own business. If the community collectively believes content shouldn't be on it, having that discussion may influence their way of thinking and eventual policy.. but there's absolutely no guarantee. It doesn't hurt for someone who feels strongly about it to broach the topic, though.
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private servers generally have a lot more engagement per player than retail.
the only real engagement retail ever has is bitching about private server players.
engagement means more clicks which means more ad revenues, this is a win-win for bg wiki.
the only real engagement retail ever has is bitching about private server players.
engagement means more clicks which means more ad revenues, this is a win-win for bg wiki.
How do we know that BG-wiki editors don't support private servers? Maybe they do? Private server populations are probably larger than Shiva right now. I'm sure those pages are generating traffic and that traffic is generating cash for BG. Good for them. I don't see a problem at all.
Another one for the block list then (you know who you are).
The wiki is publically editable. Certain other pages were deleted, why not those.
The wiki is publically editable. Certain other pages were deleted, why not those.
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Since H there has been a push to normalize private servers and that's just not ok, not only from Wiki but here as well (I'm still annoyed those PS forum sections here exist, even if nobody uses them).
A lot of this push to normalize was from Spicyryan (he directly created these pages on the wiki, here (he is why they exist) and bg forums (as before)), and he ruined himself and years of effort he put into the wiki in the process (dumbest thing he ever did and I would bet he regrets it now).
Everything does not boil down to money, have some principles. If not, have some RMT ads on the banner too so you can get your 10 cents from that? people buy gil you know?
This crap needs to be put back under the rug again and stop seeing it as being ok, it's not ok and this air of acceptance from important community sites needs to stop.
A lot of this push to normalize was from Spicyryan (he directly created these pages on the wiki, here (he is why they exist) and bg forums (as before)), and he ruined himself and years of effort he put into the wiki in the process (dumbest thing he ever did and I would bet he regrets it now).
Everything does not boil down to money, have some principles. If not, have some RMT ads on the banner too so you can get your 10 cents from that? people buy gil you know?
This crap needs to be put back under the rug again and stop seeing it as being ok, it's not ok and this air of acceptance from important community sites needs to stop.
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well you're definitely wrong about that.
spicyryan was staunchly against private servers when all that was happening/happened.
the dude flip flops more than most major politicians though and soured on SE within the last year and also had the opportunity to get some sort of control on a private server, and he is nothing if not a glutton for control. all of this pushed him to now advocating for his specific private server.
he still shits on all the other ones every chance he gets. in fact the dude is so deranged that apparently he recently made a 5 hour podcast shitting on all the private servers aside from his own.
nobody cares about your white knighting though. these resources are made for the community and by the community. private servers despite being a lot lessor in population than retail still generally have more engagement(as whined about constantly by you all) on twitch/youtube/we can assume website traffic as well.
sorry that you don't like the direction the community is going, but a handful of posters on ffxiah shouldn't be allowed to influence that direction.
spicyryan was staunchly against private servers when all that was happening/happened.
the dude flip flops more than most major politicians though and soured on SE within the last year and also had the opportunity to get some sort of control on a private server, and he is nothing if not a glutton for control. all of this pushed him to now advocating for his specific private server.
he still shits on all the other ones every chance he gets. in fact the dude is so deranged that apparently he recently made a 5 hour podcast shitting on all the private servers aside from his own.
nobody cares about your white knighting though. these resources are made for the community and by the community. private servers despite being a lot lessor in population than retail still generally have more engagement(as whined about constantly by you all) on twitch/youtube/we can assume website traffic as well.
sorry that you don't like the direction the community is going, but a handful of posters on ffxiah shouldn't be allowed to influence that direction.
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here, witness his transformation in real time going from saying that private server ***is not allowed to a short few months later creating it's own section.
worth noting horizon had been booming for about 6 months prior to all this.
nasomi/etc started the normalization of all this 6+ years ago.
https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/134633-BG-Wiki-and-Private-Servers
https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/134519-HorizonXI-%E2%80%93-Era-75-Cap-FFXI-Server-Launching-December-17th-2022?p=7649213&viewfull=1#post7649213
he has edited all his posts against private servers to simply just be a period(due to rampant flip floppery) but from context and people quoting him you can also see the bashing in real time, and then his turn around 3 months later.
tldr and to sum up my tangent on this one; don't credit spicyryan with the rise of private servers or their prominence in the community. he had 0 to do with it and is just a shill for a 50 player ***server.
this also isn't BG and ffxiah shares exactly 0 staff with BG. go post this there and stop using this website as your outlet to cry
worth noting horizon had been booming for about 6 months prior to all this.
nasomi/etc started the normalization of all this 6+ years ago.
https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/134633-BG-Wiki-and-Private-Servers
https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/134519-HorizonXI-%E2%80%93-Era-75-Cap-FFXI-Server-Launching-December-17th-2022?p=7649213&viewfull=1#post7649213
he has edited all his posts against private servers to simply just be a period(due to rampant flip floppery) but from context and people quoting him you can also see the bashing in real time, and then his turn around 3 months later.
tldr and to sum up my tangent on this one; don't credit spicyryan with the rise of private servers or their prominence in the community. he had 0 to do with it and is just a shill for a 50 player ***server.
this also isn't BG and ffxiah shares exactly 0 staff with BG. go post this there and stop using this website as your outlet to cry
GetHelpNerd said: »
spicyryan was staunchly against private servers when all that was happening/happened.
He created the wiki pages, it's been implied he talked to scraggs to get the private server forums added here and he talked to whoever is in charge on bgforums to get those added too.
https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/134633-BG-Wiki-and-Private-Servers
The reason Carver added him as staff when many people told him not to, was because he knew he would turn into a turbo simp at the slightest bit of attention and use his position to promote them, as he did.
Also I can't find the post now but Rooks said this was not his decision for them to be added, and I'm pretty sure I remember him saying someone petitioned for them to be added directly to Scraggs. It's obviously going to be Spicy that did it, cause he did a complete and embarrassing 180 out of nowhere around this time and Scraggs isn't going to listen to random people like Aerec or Carver I would think.
He was not behind the rise of Horizon, there was a proper dedicated push (probably paid promotion, given how much money Ninja was throwing around) but he was behind the push to normalize them in the retail community. One of the reasons it was not normalized on the reddit was cause he has no sway at all there.
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isn't spicyryan banned from here? how's he got this sway you seem to think he has?
for not wanting to read about private server things in your safe spaces you sure do know a lot about the behind the scenes.
regardless, ffxiah and BG represent probably 1% of communication around ffxi. discord/youtube/twitch probably represent the other 99%. in these mediums, private servers are already relatively accepted and have been for quite some time. ffxiah and BG have probably suffered the most from not accepting the direction that the community is going over the years, thus why they have fallen off so much. makes sense that they would want some of the engagement on private servers, they are trying to keep the lights on.
still not sure why you're lobbying for changes to bg wiki on ffxiah though
for not wanting to read about private server things in your safe spaces you sure do know a lot about the behind the scenes.
regardless, ffxiah and BG represent probably 1% of communication around ffxi. discord/youtube/twitch probably represent the other 99%. in these mediums, private servers are already relatively accepted and have been for quite some time. ffxiah and BG have probably suffered the most from not accepting the direction that the community is going over the years, thus why they have fallen off so much. makes sense that they would want some of the engagement on private servers, they are trying to keep the lights on.
still not sure why you're lobbying for changes to bg wiki on ffxiah though
GetHelpNerd said: »
still not sure why you're lobbying for changes to bg wiki on ffxiah though
This is why it is bait. You can foster discussion all you want but if you really want to make a change bring it up with the actual wiki admins.
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i know what you mean, but radial isn't a troll he's just a retail ffxi simp that doesn't even play ffxi(outside of free campaigns) and likes to complain.
You mean in the thread titled "BGWiki - Issue Reporting Thread & FAQ" started by Funkworkz who is a BGWiki admin that still actively posts on ffxiah?
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I'll see myself out then, but when the post prior to Radial is from someone connected to the wiki saying to move past the Spicy "drama" namedropping him several times in various threads here recently seemed like stirring the pot again for little good reason. Carry on.
I speak only for myself and not for any other wiki editors or admins.
I'm not a fan of deleting pages. Getting people to contribute content is hard. I wasn't a fan of CatsEye content being added to the wiki but it's in its own namespace and shouldn't affect the experience of people using the wiki for retail. I would say the benefit of getting additional people to come to the wiki and edit outweighed the negatives of a single digit number of overzealous people replacing retail info in the main namespace with info that only applies to private servers. As far as I'm aware every instance of that happening has been reverted. The intent is for the main namespace to always remain focused on retail.
I'm not a fan of deleting pages. Getting people to contribute content is hard. I wasn't a fan of CatsEye content being added to the wiki but it's in its own namespace and shouldn't affect the experience of people using the wiki for retail. I would say the benefit of getting additional people to come to the wiki and edit outweighed the negatives of a single digit number of overzealous people replacing retail info in the main namespace with info that only applies to private servers. As far as I'm aware every instance of that happening has been reverted. The intent is for the main namespace to always remain focused on retail.
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Fenrir.Positron said: »
I'm not a fan of deleting pages.
The other day I went to check out the DRG guide on BG and it's just...gone. poof. The talk page is still there but the actual guide from Spicy is removed. Makes sense now.
https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Talk:Here_Be_DRGs
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Fenrir.Positron said: »
I'm not a fan of deleting pages.
The other day I went to check out the DRG guide on BG and it's just...gone. poof. The talk page is still there but the actual guide from Spicy is removed. Makes sense now.
https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Talk:Here_Be_DRGs
Yes, Spicy nuked several guides on his way out, causing the biggest headache I've had to deal with since I started volunteering on the site, and making me kind of regret doing so at all.
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Kaffy said: »
This is why it is bait. You can foster discussion all you want but if you really want to make a change bring it up with the actual wiki admins.
Discussion about illegal private servers, from people who mod and use tools on retail illegally. Cope masked as bait.
well you see.. over time we have gained more exposure to "illegal tools" and have collectively decided that they are ok.
Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
You mean in the thread titled "BGWiki - Issue Reporting Thread & FAQ" started by Funkworkz who is a BGWiki admin that still actively posts on ffxiah?
GetHelpNerd said: »
are you the kind of guy that sees your doctor at the gym and you start showing him some mole on your back?
While we are at it, Dhartok page says
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There does not seem to be any limit to how many of these can be active at once
Which is incorrect. I don't know how many he can place but it's usually about a full circle around the arena. He definitely stops at some point, would estimate it wastes around 15-20 minutes but probably also depends on how many trusts you have with you that cast -na.
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The reason to do it is it sends the message from authoritative sources (yes XIAH, BGwiki and BGforums are those for this game) in the XI community that they are not "ok", it moves the window of acceptability a little bit away from them.
Are they still going to exist? yes, but they should never have been seen as anything but a negative to THIS game we are here for, and that these sites exist purely to cater to. Cause that's what they are.
PS are things that happen after a game ceases, not while it's still running.
To me and many others I'm sure, this is akin to running RMT ads. It really is, you can pretend it's not but it is. It's not even giving the sites mass ad revenue cause a lot of that initial hype was either astroturfed (people were paid to play it, money was handed around in donations and lots of other things) or it's all now died down anyway, so why not just remove this crap? I don't get it.
I cannot imagine a site/wiki like these existing for ff14 or wow and doing this, it's not even something I would consider them doing cause the community would be in up in arms about it.
If SE community reps ever did see these sites as valid, they surely won't anymore either.
Are they still going to exist? yes, but they should never have been seen as anything but a negative to THIS game we are here for, and that these sites exist purely to cater to. Cause that's what they are.
PS are things that happen after a game ceases, not while it's still running.
To me and many others I'm sure, this is akin to running RMT ads. It really is, you can pretend it's not but it is. It's not even giving the sites mass ad revenue cause a lot of that initial hype was either astroturfed (people were paid to play it, money was handed around in donations and lots of other things) or it's all now died down anyway, so why not just remove this crap? I don't get it.
I cannot imagine a site/wiki like these existing for ff14 or wow and doing this, it's not even something I would consider them doing cause the community would be in up in arms about it.
If SE community reps ever did see these sites as valid, they surely won't anymore either.
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GetHelpNerd said: »
well you see.. over time we have gained more exposure to "illegal tools" and have collectively decided that they are ok.
Did we decide it was OK before or after he got banned?
RadialArcana said: »
PS are things that happen after a game ceases, not while it's still running.
and if you do not cite WoW private servers and them essentially spawning WoW classic then you are unfortunately wrong and delusional(the latter of the two likely either way).
not to mention WoW still has active development, ffxi is much closer to dead than 99% of active MMOs. you are basically just straight up wrong.
the rest isnt worth responding to, you found another way to cry about private server forums here and on BG and took it, it's not bait because you aren't a troll but it's genuinely a waste of time and pathetic.
Shichishito said: »
Which is incorrect. I don't know how many he can place but it's usually about a full circle around the arena. He definitely stops at some point, would estimate it wastes around 15-20 minutes but probably also depends on how many trusts you have with you that cast -na.
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[623] Dhartok [624] Poison Mist [625] Poison Mist [626] Poison Mist [627] Poison Mist [628] Poison Mist [629] Poison Mist [630] Poison Mist [631] Poison Mist [632] Poison Mist [633] Poison Mist [634] Poison Mist [635] Poison Mist [636] Poison Mist [637] Poison Mist [638] Poison Mist [639] Poison Mist
16 in the dats, so pretty reasonable to assume that's the limit
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This is what the private server page on BGWiki currently says, emphasis added:
The BGWiki admins and moderators need to decide if this is the stance BGWiki as a wiki resource has.
It should be pointed out that the private server page is solely written and edited by one person, you know who. No edits or contributions to it from any other person.
Is the above that person's opinion or the stance of BGWiki as a whole.
There are several points of contention on that page:
a)b) c)
d)
I don't think (a) is true at all. Retail and private server XI are entirely different games. The two communities could not be more different in what they want or what they say they like in XI.
(b) seems to be made up. I see no evidence of this, though admins can comment.
(c) Is a straw man argument. Private server players/admins have the resources to make their own wikis instead of cannibalising retail XI wikis. This is especially true given the number of changes made from retail XI to private server XI, making the two completely different games as already stated.
(d) Who's "we" here. Seems to be one person saying this. Is it the stance of BGWiki admins that they "wish to provide a space for quality private server pages"?
It should be obvious, but no one looking at that private server page is going to think "That's just one guy saying that". They are going to think that is the stance of BGWiki.
Personally I see nothing wrong with deleting pages from a wiki if those pages have nothing to do with what the wiki is about. If there is documentation about a different product on another product's community wiki, should they stay up there because it's "bad" to delete stuff? I don't see how that makes sense.
The "it's in a different namespace so bothers no one" stance is a weird one. Firstly, it's not true, it's just a category and a pseudo agreement that private server pages will not be linked to from retail XI pages or the main page.
They are pages on the wiki like any other, nothing stopping anyone from linking to them or making them visible.
Quote:
BG Wiki and Private Servers
It needs to be stated that BG Wiki is a retail wiki. Wider pages across the wiki should only reflect retail. If you are not sure or can not verify an edit as retail accurate outside of the Category:Private Server, then do not make it.
We also encourage anyone participating in a private server to maintain an active retail sub. This not only helps preserve the real game, but will continue providing a crucial resource for private server development.
The private server community is, and should be seen as a wider part of the Final Fantasy XI community. Not as a rogue alien or adversary to the game. Private server players use and participate in the development of this wiki. Many projects point to pages on our wiki for their players along with custom comments on their end creating a disunity in player resources. It is for all this and more that we wish to provide a space for quality private server pages while also maintaining the utmost integrity of the wiki for retail.
It needs to be stated that BG Wiki is a retail wiki. Wider pages across the wiki should only reflect retail. If you are not sure or can not verify an edit as retail accurate outside of the Category:Private Server, then do not make it.
We also encourage anyone participating in a private server to maintain an active retail sub. This not only helps preserve the real game, but will continue providing a crucial resource for private server development.
The private server community is, and should be seen as a wider part of the Final Fantasy XI community. Not as a rogue alien or adversary to the game. Private server players use and participate in the development of this wiki. Many projects point to pages on our wiki for their players along with custom comments on their end creating a disunity in player resources. It is for all this and more that we wish to provide a space for quality private server pages while also maintaining the utmost integrity of the wiki for retail.
The BGWiki admins and moderators need to decide if this is the stance BGWiki as a wiki resource has.
It should be pointed out that the private server page is solely written and edited by one person, you know who. No edits or contributions to it from any other person.
Is the above that person's opinion or the stance of BGWiki as a whole.
There are several points of contention on that page:
a)
Quote:
The private server community is, and should be seen as a wider part of the Final Fantasy XI community
Quote:
Private server players use and participate in the development of this wiki
Quote:
Many projects point to pages on our wiki for their players along with custom comments on their end creating a disunity in player resources.
d)
Quote:
It is for all this and more that we wish to provide a space for quality private server pages while also maintaining the utmost integrity of the wiki for retail
I don't think (a) is true at all. Retail and private server XI are entirely different games. The two communities could not be more different in what they want or what they say they like in XI.
(b) seems to be made up. I see no evidence of this, though admins can comment.
(c) Is a straw man argument. Private server players/admins have the resources to make their own wikis instead of cannibalising retail XI wikis. This is especially true given the number of changes made from retail XI to private server XI, making the two completely different games as already stated.
(d) Who's "we" here. Seems to be one person saying this. Is it the stance of BGWiki admins that they "wish to provide a space for quality private server pages"?
It should be obvious, but no one looking at that private server page is going to think "That's just one guy saying that". They are going to think that is the stance of BGWiki.
Personally I see nothing wrong with deleting pages from a wiki if those pages have nothing to do with what the wiki is about. If there is documentation about a different product on another product's community wiki, should they stay up there because it's "bad" to delete stuff? I don't see how that makes sense.
The "it's in a different namespace so bothers no one" stance is a weird one. Firstly, it's not true, it's just a category and a pseudo agreement that private server pages will not be linked to from retail XI pages or the main page.
They are pages on the wiki like any other, nothing stopping anyone from linking to them or making them visible.
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ok, thank you.
very well thought out post on FFXIAH which has literally nothing to do with BG, in fact The two communities could not be more different in what they want or what they say they like in XI
very well thought out post on FFXIAH which has literally nothing to do with BG, in fact The two communities could not be more different in what they want or what they say they like in XI
Spicy was at one point as anti private server as I and many others are, and as much as I didn't like some of the things he did in the game I at least respected him for that and the effort he put into the wiki. Then for his own reasons he mistakenly did a 180 and he was the sole push for the things I mentioned in the 3 places.
Now he is no longer part of retail, does not care about us or our game or wiki and his decisions should be rethought, if the people who are keeping these places running no longer agree with his stance on private servers, remove the pages. Seems pretty simple to me, if it was me I would nuke them from orbit without a second thought. It's not even a question in my mind, and I'm confused why others who obviously care about the game don't think the same.
These are not acceptable on fan site dedicated to this game: Private servers, Botting, RMT.
It's pretty black and white really, they are against the ToS, most retail players don't agree with it and it's no benefit to the wiki cause they have their own anyway.
All it does is validate and condone them to your users and that's why they wanted it, why would you want to do that?
We are better than this, have some standards. As far as I'm concerned if you keep this stuff then there is no reason to outlaw bottling or rmt pages either, it's literally the same thing.
Now he is no longer part of retail, does not care about us or our game or wiki and his decisions should be rethought, if the people who are keeping these places running no longer agree with his stance on private servers, remove the pages. Seems pretty simple to me, if it was me I would nuke them from orbit without a second thought. It's not even a question in my mind, and I'm confused why others who obviously care about the game don't think the same.
These are not acceptable on fan site dedicated to this game: Private servers, Botting, RMT.
It's pretty black and white really, they are against the ToS, most retail players don't agree with it and it's no benefit to the wiki cause they have their own anyway.
All it does is validate and condone them to your users and that's why they wanted it, why would you want to do that?
We are better than this, have some standards. As far as I'm concerned if you keep this stuff then there is no reason to outlaw bottling or rmt pages either, it's literally the same thing.
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