February 2019 Version Update

Saevel havent said it sucks. Saevel said that Rudra's is better and he is right, but Torzak is also right that if you want to go for no skillchain WS for fights where ppl mostly use savage blade and resolution, then savage Blade IS dmg upgrade over Shark Bite, so it has practical (tho niche) uses.

This isn't an argument, it's me answering your statement on why nobodies mentioned it yet, its not as good as already existing sources of damage that THF has access to.

As this poster said


I happen to have a WAR/MNK build using those knuckles and while it's definitely fun, it doesn't do anything I couldn't do better with a different setup.

If someone wants to make off-brand builds then I'm the last person who will get in their way. I'm the guy who likes to play WAR precisely because of the number of off brand builds it has access to and I have WS sets for virtually every WS I can use, including Retribution, True Strike, Judgment, Vorpal Blade, Tornado Kick, and even Gimpulse Drive. Being real with someone and providing them information isn't arguing with them.

Is that true for Decimation build tho? I always tho that sub hand hit and multihit proc on sub hand take damage from that hand to calculate damage. Is that not true?

Sub hand hits will be on avg ~30% of all hits and all hits have same value, so I would say off hand damage is quite important here.

When people want Fragmentation specifically it's usually because they want to make light by combining it with a Fusion element. Frag + Fusion make light in either order, and Mandalic Stab has the fusion element. So thief is capable of filling in either role, via shark bite (frag) or Mandalic Stab (fusion). Mandalic stab is the better weaponskill though so it's more effecient to have the thf using Mandalic Stab in that situation. The sword isn't bad on thf, but the scope of its applications are limited. Rudra's is just soo much better than any other weaponskill we have access to that you would never want to use a sword in a tp spam environment, and we already have skillchain versatility with just our dagger weaponskills to fill in whatever role is needed to make either light or darkness.

Except, I said from the very beginning that it looked like an interesting option. I didn't go full circle on anything haha.

Late Edit:

I didn't know something had to be as good as existing sources of damage for something to get a mention. Seems people mention all sorts of things for niche applications all the time.

Gonna be really something when they get upgraded to the last stage...

I smell another rema upgrade in 5-9 months

"The issue in Dynamis – Divergence wherein the monster Disjoined’s Odin would repeatedly use Shin Zantetsuken."

Whaaaaat, that was actually a thing? That's brutal!

Indeed. Another upgrade makes these very good, so... obviously that means more remabump

I need some decimation screenshots. With and without kaja comparison

I had the same thought. The stage 4 is already shockingly good, and when the stage 5 comes out they're going to be scary similar to full REMA. It feels kinda wrong for a weapon you can get in a couple hours to match up so well with one that takes most people over half a year of dedicated grinding to finish. I'm glad they're really strong though and at this point in the game a catchup weapon like this is necessary to help people who are new to a specific job stay current. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if they bump REMA up another peg. My guess is they'll do it at roughly the same time they release empyrean +2 and 3. That'll give us plenty to keep occupied with for quite some time.

Huh... no.

Sub hand is responsible for exactly one hit in the WS, all others are done with the main hand. WDMG values are only one part of a bigger WS calculation for base damage, so missing 15~20 on an off hit of a multi-hit WS isn't much of a deal while the lowered delay and more favorable TP gain speed is.

(WDMG + WSC + fSTR)

Delay from TP is based on combined Delay divided by number of weapons wielding. So with 36 DW Kaji + Barb vs Kaji + Vamp you get

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Tactical_Points


So about 4% faster TP gain but the Vamp has an occasional TP drain which would alter that further. Digi isn't quite as fast but does have Multi-Attack and can get Store TP which would most likely me more useful and STR augments means it's not as much of a loss WSC wise.

Basically if you can get under 180 delay per hand you get a more favorable TP formula.

Another upgrade will be skill 255 mab +3, acc/att/macc+5 and str/vit/chr +10 and that's it imo. they wont beat current REMA (in most cases).

I think SE's idea was that they would be almost but not quite as strong as REMA's. I think that's why they are wedded to the Quest weapon skill, so DREAMQ now? I like how their accessible to many jobs, lots of different and unique things can be done that way. Surprised they didn't include a gun or crossbow since that's also a WS that people could use.

QREAMD

I'm so stealing that.

I always thought that general consensus was that while dual wielding, QA/TA/DA can proc once on each hand during WS.

Normally without multi-attack sub hand hit for decimation is 25% of all hits (1 out of 4). If MA proc works like I wrote above, then avg hits for Decimation should be around 5.4 from which 3.7 are with main hand and 1.7 with sub hand. That would mean sub hand hits are more than 30% of all hits on avg.

Also the difference between Barbarity+1 and vampirism (with fSTR) is 53, not 15-20.

Yeah, I really like what they did with these weapons. I don't expect the final stage to beat current REMA either, but I expect them to be comparably close enough that a fresh player on a job can go to events with it and not feel bad. That's what the design intent feels like, and it's a good one. I still have a suspicion they may be planning another REMA bump down the road though. They have to keep us occipied somehow and one of the best ways to do that is by having us fetch more Mcguffins for the REMA weapons from time to time. These just set the stage to make that a more feasible design choice.



This is true. I actually mentioned on the thf threads that one of the things I like most about the dagger is its low delay. I'm going to farm mine up tonight and give it a test run, and I'll probably end up switching out my taming sari for this for that reason. The final stage will almost certainly have enough stats to make that a no brainer. Also a lower delay means more hits during the tp phase, and that means more white damage if you have empyrean aftermath up. There are some really good weapons in this lot. I can't wait to see the final versions.

What is this consensus you speak of.

Dual Wielding has absolutely nothing to do with WS damage calculations, it's just a bonus hit. The first two hits of a WS can proc a MA calc, the off hand hit is after all the main hand hits. And I was discussing the DMG difference between Barbarity + 1 and augmented Digi, Vamp was just an interesting choice due to it's benefits for both Decimation and Cloudsplitter and was a good highlight at lower delay giving better TP per second. If your just going to spam Decimation then augmented Digi would likely be the best offhand.

Base case scenario your seeking justification to use your Barbarity +1, worst case your trying to mark up the price to see it off. Probably somewhere in between.

It's not getting another skill upgrade, just the augments portion is the last part (if I understood the communication they posted previously).

The difference between a max augment Digirbalag and Barbarity +1 is 7 DA vs 24 damage, respectively.

For Decimation, anyway.

Anyone know the trigger conditions for the "known" controller issue?

That's not quite correct, at least not for dual wielding a 1 hit weaponskill like rudra's storm. As far as I know when you're dual wielding both the first hit of the main hand as well as the first hit of the off hand can proc a multi attack round. I've heard that for 2 handed weaponskills like upheaval the first 2 swings can proc a multi attack, but I don't do 2 handed jobs so I can't speak from experience. What I CAN speak from experience though is that when I'm using a 1 hit weaponskill as thf I can get multi proc attacks from both hands. If the offhand couldn't proc a multi attack then rudra's storm would never go over 4 hits, and I have DEFINATELY seen 6 swing rudra's tp returns. You can calculate the number of swings based on the tp returned. Each additional swing gives an extra 10 TP, so if my first hit on the main hand returned 62 TP a rudra's that procced triple attack on both hands and landed all 6 swings would return 112 tp. That has happened and I've seen it more than a few times, and whenever it does the weaponskill numbers are also spiked accordingly.

Granted that doesn't change how damage from each individual hit of a weaponskill is calculated, but it does mean that dual wielding jobs always get 2 chances to multi proc, whereas 1 handers get 2 chances only if the weaponskill has 2 or more hits to it natively.

I'm pretty certain, too, that DW procs x1 MultiAttack on the main hand and x1 MultiAttack on the off-hand.

It's the first two hits of a WS regardless of where those hits come from. The sequence of hits is all main hand hits, then all off hand hits. This is visible in TP return when a mob runs out of HP after the main hand hits but before the off hand hits. I even just said this.



So take Evisceration

Main Hit 1 <MA Roll>
Main Hit 2 <MA Roll>
Main Hit 3
Main Hit 4
Main Hit 5
Off Hit 1

Both MA rolls were on the main hand.

Now take Rudras

Main Hit 1 <MA Roll>
Off Hit 1 <MA Roll>

This would be Savage Blade
Main Hit 1 <MA Roll>
Main Hit 2 <MA Roll>
Off Hit 1

And since Decimation is what we're talking about
Main Hit 1 <MA Roll>
Main Hit 2 <MA Roll>
Main Hit 3
Off Hit 1


Nope it's the first two hits of any WS period, off hand is just added as a bonus hit near the end. It doesn't matter if you WS with your main, with your off or even with your feet. Yes MA procs can happen when you use your feet for the WS.

Which is fine for the purpose of this discussion. The only relevant takeaway point then is that dual wielders always get 2 chances to multi proc, and 1 handers get 2 chances only if their weaponskill has 2 or more hits to it naturally. Seems we both agree on that.

Lol Saevel :D I guess it's some kind of Asura schizophrenia? :D

I don't have Barbarity and can't craft one for profit, so none of that.

As for DA during Dual wield, I cant find any specific info about it. Maybe I was cofused because you can MA proc on offhand when WS is 1hit without dual wielding (like for example MA proc with offhand katana on Blade: Metsu) and from that I was thinking for multihit WS, MA could also proc once on each hand. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong, but dont need to make up second bottom :D

lllllluuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuulllllllllllll 32 Hepatizon Separa +1 on the AH. Good luck with that.

After seeing some 39k Evisceration on my THF it safe to say, that +50% applies to all hits.

Get da axe doe.

Thanks for the easy reply. I assumed as much, but wanted to be sure. I mainly was wondering for my RDM mule.

How’s the dagger for brd DPS?