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Resist Testing
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6052
By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-04-28 15:06:29
Moving this from WHM thread, as it seems it may be a longer topic than first intended. I'm testing resist silence and resist all status ailments using Gargoyle-Mu and Gargoyle-Lambda from the quest "A Reputation in Ruins". The NMs are level 53-54 and only cast silence and shock spikes. Typically, I get about 85 silence casts in an hour before they run out of MP, and they do not outdamage 3/tick auto-regen on WHM, making this a very laid back and easy testing method if anyone cares to join me.
I am using a basic script to use echo drops as soon as silence lands successfully, and ignoring any 'no effect' casts if they happen to both cast very close together and the first lands.
I have verified that resist checks anyway even if you are already silenced, so I am no longer using echos. 'No effect' will be listed as landed, and data from sets prior to this change is still accurate as it contained no 'No effect' messages.
Turns out, silencing potions are 'weaker' than mob silence and mobs will still be able to land silence with those up, while they will not be able to with their own silence up. As I still had full text logs available, data has been reparsed to reflect this(negate all no effects instead of counting them as landed).
They can be repopped immediately, so I just cast stoneskin, log out, wait 5 minutes for despawn, log in, repop once they are out of MP.
Server: Leviathan
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-04-28 15:06:58
This post will contain test data only.
========================= NON-NM SAMPLES ======================== Code Etio + Shrieker's Cuffs (Dyna-Windy):
1599 Casts
132 Silenced
610 Resist!
857 Resists
38.1% resist! rate
86.6% resist rate Code Shrieker's Cuffs [Dyna-Windy]:
1440 Casts
164 Silenced
371 Resist!
905 Resists
25.7% Resist! rate
84.6% Resist rate Code Hearty Earring [Dyna-Windy]:
1447 Casts
177 Silenced
77 Resist!
1193 Resists
5.3% Resist! rate
87.1% Resist rate Code Staunch Tathlum +1 [Dyna-Windy]:
1391 Casts
176 Silenced
134 Resist!
1081 Resist
9.6% Resist! rate
86.0% Resist rate Code Etiolation Earring [Dyna-Windy]:
1453 Casts
170 Silenced
214 Resist!
1069 Resist
14.7% Resist! rate
86.2% Resist rate
=========================== NM SAMPLES ============================= Code Etiolation Earring + Shrieker's Cuffs(composite of Gargoyle samples):
365 Casts
42 Silenced
64 Resist!
259 Resist
17.5% resist! rate
86.0% resist rate Code Etiolation Earring(composite of Gargoyle samples):
348 Casts
44 Silenced
39 Resist!
265 Resist
11.2% resist! rate
85.7% resist rate Code Dagon Breastplate (Carmine Dobsonflies):
283 Casts
15 Slowed
133 Resist!
143 Resists
46.9% Resist! rate
90.5% resist rate Code Dagon Breastplate + Miso Ramen +1 (Carmine Dobsonflies):
550 Casts
31 Slowed
337 Resist!
182 Resists
61.3% Resist! Rate
85.4% Resist Rate
=================== BRENNER SAMPLES ============================= Code Etiolation Earring >>>BRENNER<<<:
768 Casts
90 Silenced
214 Resist!
464 Resists
27.8% resist! rate
83.7% resist rate Code Etiolation Earring + Shrieker's Cuffs >>>BRENNER<<<:
1000 Casts
27 Silences
782 Resist!
191 Resists
78.2% resist! rate
87.6% resist rate Code Staunch Tathlum +1 >>>BRENNER<<<:
895 casts
91 silences
210 resist!
594 resists
23.4% resist!
86.7% resists Code Hearty Earring >>>BRENNER<<<: (Credit to Chiaia)
2000 Casts
330 Silences
178 Resist!
1492 Resists
8.9% resist! rate
81.9% resist rate
Server: Leviathan
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-04-28 15:08:13
Now, I'm going to increase the sample size with just Etiolation Earring, as the proc rate seems particularly low. However, I thought it was worth pointing out:
5.7 / 15 = 0.38
15.1 / 40 = 0.3775
So, despite the small sample size, it seems to be roughly the same ratio of actual resist! procs to 'Resist Silence+'.
Server: Leviathan
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-04-28 15:32:40
From first samples it seems like the Resist Silence+ on Shriekers and Etiolation is the same, it just isn't a flat % and is more like 1/256 per +1. This isn't terribly far off of what people saw for body results.
However, please take this with a grain of salt until test results have gotten much larger. Margin of error is still quite big with current samples.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-04-28 16:24:24
Added a second etiolation sample, which had significantly more resist! procs. Going to continue fleshing out these two data sets until a model fits them both before working on 'all status' gear. I suspect it may be several days of data gathering to have sufficient information for conclusions.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-04-28 17:28:05
Bajillion thanks dude, we sorely need a fleshed out model of Reset vs MEVD vs traits / ect. Having something be x/256 if it doesn't state a percentage would be interesting.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-04-28 17:39:30
Encourage anyone who wants to draw conclusions/post in thread, but I will still be continuing to ninja add data to my second post for the next few days, as it's very clear that a large amount will be necessary to reliably make claims here. I will also have full text logs of each 1 hour sample available should anyone want to examine them for any reason, but in the interest of brevity I'll only be posting the data numbers from them.
[+]
 Leviathan.Andret
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By Leviathan.Andret 2018-04-28 19:36:50
Do we get resist from traits 1st or m.eva resist 1st?
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-04-28 19:42:40
Do we get resist from traits 1st or m.eva resist 1st? Conclusion drawn by Geriond was that you get resist from traits first, he was at around 50% from traits when doing a small test on RUN. This data also indicates traits are first as far as I am concerned.
If you flip the order and divide Resist! procs by Resist!+Lands, you'd see(at time of post) 59% trait resist with etio+shriekers and 43.5% with just etio. That is completely unreasonable when compared to visual observation, so I think it is safe to conclude that Resist! procs first.
Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2018-04-28 20:13:09
I'm really glad to see some respectable sample sizes coming in, with more on the way. I'm hopeful we can get some definitive values for resist+ in the near future.
I'd contribute, but I'm still on the fence about resubbing. :/
Also, good job finding such an effective test method. Reasonably fast, well controlled and easily repeatable. The only really issue I see is that the quest that pops these doesn't appear to be repeatable. So anyone who's already completed it wouldn't be able to use this test method.
By clearlyamule 2018-04-28 20:28:31
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »Encourage anyone who wants to draw conclusions/post in thread, I wouldn't mind adding to it or even finding similar nms with different debuffs (got a couple of other omen bodies so could possibly test some high values) but obviously not going to sit at computer for it so as a scripting n00b mind running me thru how to script something like automatic status removals?
Server: Leviathan
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-04-28 20:33:29
I wouldn't mind adding to it or even finding similar nms with different debuffs (got a couple of other omen bodies so could possibly test some high values) but obviously not going to sit at computer for it so as a scripting n00b mind running me thru how to script something like automatic status removals? I'm assuming you're on windower so I can't help directly as I haven't looked at it in years, but someone else should be able to. Note that a second silence cast while still silenced would just be 'no effect' anyway, I believe. I'll bring some silencing potions out to find out on my next test. If that's the case, you shouldn't be too worried as it will just lower data collection speed by a very small amount.
You can just use any form of logger and notepad++'s ctrl-f to easily count how many silence casts, resist! resists, lands, etc. from a sample. I would recommend keeping the full logs as well, as I am, so if any data is called into question your process can be reviewed for errors.
The quest itself is very short and the walk isn't bad from beaucedine guide with mount, you should be able to progress the quest and get to the spot within 15 minutes the first time, and well under 10 min subsequent times. Note that you are limited to around a 1 hour sample while afk, as once they run out of MP you will need to either log/escape/warp and repop them to refill MP. As Martel said, the quest isn't repeatable, so make sure not to kill them and end it.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-04-28 20:46:05
Confirmed you'll still get resist messages(both Resist! and normal) if already silenced, so you don't actually need an automatic echo to do this method. Just add the 'no effects' to the same category as landed.
Measured the run, and it's only 3 and a half minutes from a survival guide using mount for beaucedine. So, pretty easy to run out for a quick sample.
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By Asura.Geriond 2018-04-28 21:00:03
Unfortunately, those NMs are not directly linked to the quest, so even people that haven't done said quest might not be able to do this test.
I tried to go down there, but I've already done both sets of Gargoyle NMs even without ever having done the quest.
By clearlyamule 2018-04-28 21:15:15
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »I wouldn't mind adding to it or even finding similar nms with different debuffs (got a couple of other omen bodies so could possibly test some high values) but obviously not going to sit at computer for it so as a scripting n00b mind running me thru how to script something like automatic status removals? I'm assuming you're on windower so I can't help directly as I haven't looked at it in years, but someone else should be able to. Note that a second silence cast while still silenced would just be 'no effect' anyway, I believe. I'll bring some silencing potions out to find out on my next test. If that's the case, you shouldn't be too worried as it will just lower data collection speed by a very small amount.
You can just use any form of logger and notepad++'s ctrl-f to easily count how many silence casts, resist! resists, lands, etc. from a sample. I would recommend keeping the full logs as well, as I am, so if any data is called into question your process can be reviewed for errors.
The quest itself is very short and the walk isn't bad from beaucedine guide with mount, you should be able to progress the quest and get to the spot within 15 minutes the first time, and well under 10 min subsequent times. Note that you are limited to around a 1 hour sample while afk, as once they run out of MP you will need to either log/escape/warp and repop them to refill MP. As Martel said, the quest isn't repeatable, so make sure not to kill them and end it. Ashita like you. But good know don't need to worry about curing it. Does ashita have some sort of logger for easy data collection?
Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-04-28 21:21:05
addon named logs
 Asura.ChiaiaVIP
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By Asura.Chiaia 2018-04-29 03:20:37
I like to bring up the Ballista again. I think it's still going to be a valid area to test (Resist!) gear because the way the changes made it was you slowly build up an immunity(regular resist messages) till it becomes floored to like a 5% land rate that last 1 second.
I know lolwutz sample size is very small atm but based on it it seems the Resist! gear at least hands + earring are doing nothing for raw MEVA and are only adding to out right Resist!. (86.7% vs 86.1%)
Also based on my testing I also believe that Resist! checks happen before MEVA since in Ballista wearing no Resist! gear it's like a 5% land rate once it's fully built up but if I stack a lot of Resist! gear those messages pop up way more then 5% of the time.
5% land rate is eye balled atm but it's being logged for actual hard #s atm.
Thoughts?
[+]
Server: Leviathan
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-04-29 08:12:57
Not sure how true it is, but the conventional wisdom between people playing ballista has always been that resist gear was more potent than usual there. I could certainly bring my alliance into ballista to see if the results are comparable.. data collection would be much faster.
My samples should be capped m.eva(inyanga+2 on 4/5 slots vs level 53-54 mobs..), the only point of publishing that stat is to see what capped m.eva results in. Both my tests and Geriond's quick sample already confirmed that Resist! should proc before normal resists.
The current samples were originally intended to identify whether shrieker's cuffs add resist trait or not, but now I'm curious why etiolation is so far below the proposed 15%. Obviously much more data is needed to be certain, but it's reasonable to conclude that Shriekers+Etiolation is not the 40% you would assume from reading them. The only way to get data of that sort is actual testing, since we can apparently not take SE's word for it when reading gear descriptions.
Asura.Chiaia
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By Asura.Chiaia 2018-04-29 08:58:34
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »I have verified that resist checks anyway even if you are already silenced, so I am no longer using echos. 'No effect' will be listed as landed, and data from sets prior to this change is still accurate as it contained no 'No effect' messages. Where are you getting the checks from still? I was parsing incoming 0x028 but till I get silence down to sub 3 second duration(about 5 minutes in using only one character spamming silence) I never got any useful data because not once did (Resist!) proc and all the No Effects and I just can't see this not happening with the 10% rate I was having outside of this time.
I could also just use a automated echo script. Just curious if you found some wheres else to get the data from that I'm not thinking of or if MvP works differently then PvP for that.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-04-29 09:03:35
I used a silencing potion and proceeded to get resist and resist! messages while I was silenced. Nothing you can't do with vanilla client. There's no way to narrow it down in the packet that I know of.
I think it's pretty fair to assume PvE works differently. As I said, it's been long assumed that resist traits function differently there. You can read around and see posts such as Urteil claiming resist petrify+7 provides near immunity to petrify.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-04-29 09:11:42
In retrospect, maybe there are levels of silence and a higher level can still stand a chance of landing while a lower/equal level can't. I will have to reparse my last two logs and see if there are any resists when silenced from the monsters.
Weird that it would work that way given silence is fixed 'potency', but I'm imagining Poison/Poison2 type scenario.
Asura.Chiaia
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By Asura.Chiaia 2018-04-29 09:13:42
that's what i was about to go test with some silence pots lol
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-04-29 09:19:55
Looking at the logs, it does seem that way(I am seeing no effects for every time I am cast on while silenced in this file.).
I will have to recalculate the last couple tests from logs(all the more reason for people to keep full text logs of stuff like this!). This means if you are not using a form of auto echo to test, you'll collect data a bit slower(in this case, I had 9 no effects out of 89 casts, so wasting 10% of potential data points).
Very strange that silence has multiple levels of 'potency' given it has a very static effect and neither is mute. I wonder if there's a way for RDM to overwrite their own silence by changing amount of enfeebling, or RDM and BLU silence can be combined for longer duration.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-04-29 09:23:54
Reparsed data and updated, there were only 9 cases in one test so it did not change much. Will bring a few characters to ballista later today to see if resist! rate is comparable there.
Asura.Chiaia
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By Asura.Chiaia 2018-04-29 09:29:57
I could cast Silence on RDM and overwrite the Silent Potion but not vice versa. Also grabbed so echos and after about 40s of spamming silence and using them I had built up the regular immunity. So it seems the immunity isn't getting built up for all the No Effects during the previous testing I did.
Also did a quick test with Kishar ring off and then on to see if it could overwrite but no. Be interesting to see with enfeebling skill though.
By tyalangan 2018-04-29 09:57:23
Is this a naked test with literally just the earring and cuffs? If so then the etiolation earring only tests are just the earring only nothing else, correct?
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-04-29 10:04:01
No, they are wearing only those for sources of 'Resist Status'. You can tell the difference because when it procs, the messaage says:
Resist! Char resists the spell.
instead of
Char resists the spell.
By tyalangan 2018-04-29 10:25:00
Okay, then my question is:
When you switch from Shriekers do you put on inya +2? I am guessing the 20~ difference in meva isn't being calculated because you are already capped on meva with the shriekers?
That or 20~ is so small it doesn't raise your resist rate since both are at 86% basically.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2018-04-29 10:50:49
This is a level 53-54 mob. The only value of the plain resist data is to show what the cap may or may not be, I am certainly capped with any hands given I am wearing 4/5 inya+2.
It does not effect the 'Resist!' procrate, as that is a different message triggered by different conditions.
[+]
Moving this from WHM thread, as it seems it may be a longer topic than first intended. I'm testing resist silence and resist all status ailments using Gargoyle-Mu and Gargoyle-Lambda from the quest "A Reputation in Ruins". The NMs are level 53-54 and only cast silence and shock spikes. Typically, I get about 85 silence casts in an hour before they run out of MP, and they do not outdamage 3/tick auto-regen on WHM, making this a very laid back and easy testing method if anyone cares to join me.
I am using a basic script to use echo drops as soon as silence lands successfully, and ignoring any 'no effect' casts if they happen to both cast very close together and the first lands.
I have verified that resist checks anyway even if you are already silenced, so I am no longer using echos. 'No effect' will be listed as landed, and data from sets prior to this change is still accurate as it contained no 'No effect' messages.
Turns out, silencing potions are 'weaker' than mob silence and mobs will still be able to land silence with those up, while they will not be able to with their own silence up. As I still had full text logs available, data has been reparsed to reflect this(negate all no effects instead of counting them as landed).
They can be repopped immediately, so I just cast stoneskin, log out, wait 5 minutes for despawn, log in, repop once they are out of MP.
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