None is saying he did only Pacifying Ruby. Aerix said that SMN spent 2 min around 30% to refresh all buffs. With good sets most buffs duration is like 9 minutes? I'm also sure that Pacifying Ruby isn't needed more than once per 40-60 sec (the longer the fight goes the harder will be for DRK to catch up to automaton after Ruby) You definitely can do other things while being on PR duty. Also no idea why you undervalue the complete hate control that SMN offer here. Why SMN need to do anything else, when keeping DRK hate in checks is super useful and none else can do it? WHM main job is healing, tank tanking, DD killing the job, BRD to sing etc. Why is SMN need to do anything else than super simple but super important and critical for whole strategy assignment?
RNG doest work in this fight (We are talking about Kalunga, not all other possible fight. Many jobs are reduced to one task in different fights), Dirge is not enough, Sirvante can't be cast on Automaton. Enmity- sets or items do nothing, SV Dirge is already -50 enmity, which is a cap.
String Theory: A Puppetmaster's Guide *NEW*
String Theory: A Puppetmaster's Guide *NEW*
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Vaerix said: »
I say all of this to say, if you feel like the summoner as a wasted spot, what would you replace them with? Replacing the summoner would obviously mean replacing the pup with pld(full dispel kinda precludes run), which could also be a healer in a 2nd or 3rd fight. Not only have you increased your damage output by replacing the summoner, but you've also increased your damage taken and targets requiring healing during the fight by 3.
Not sure why you feel replacing SMN means you must use PLD tank over PUP. My entire point was that you may still be able to PUP tank without requiring a SMN to do nothing but Pacifying Ruby. Be sure your PUP is actually using pet enmity+ swaps like you mentioned, do some of the other hate reduction tips I discussed, and I just don't know that it's all that necessary to have SMN solely for that reason?
If you removed the SMN, there are several seemingly viable alternatives in Aerix's example of PUP DRK SMN BRD COR WHM party:
- RDM for lots of enfeebles. If you're comfortable with additional TP feed, could also melee and help with SCs, add strong enspell damage with Crocea Mors, and IDK if Sanguine Blade works (but if so, could use that and not interrupt SCs).
- SCH for enm-, Embrava, SC ability, Regen, etc.
- GEO for more buffs/enfeebles - though I'll admit I am unsure how much, if at all, Geomancy is nerfed on Gaol NMs.
- RNG for safe damage from a distance
- BST for potent slug debuffs
- Assuming you're OK with an additional person giving the mob some TP, any other DD could help add damage and participate in SCs (perhaps go with something like a DNC that can play a good supporting role with steps/sambas, or someone fulltiming a weapon like GA or GK with def- WS, instead of having the DRK be responsible for Armor Break)
Or even use the SMN more for other purposes. Mewing Lullaby? Damaging BPs (including ACAF)? And maybe you toss in a Pacifying Ruby on occasion, but less of a dedicated role than purely babysitting the DRK (to be fair, Aerix said they were being conservative and may not have needed the all out Ruby spam their SMN was doing)
Once again, congrats to Aerix for figuring out something that worked for them on this fight. I'm just not entirely convinced that PUP tanking inherently means it's a requirement to use a SMN for Pacifying Ruby spam.
Okay, the reason the Pup tank needs a combination of Pacifying Ruby and dirge for 1 dd fights is because the pup can get hate quickly and establish strong tanking during overdrive. In fights longer than your 3 min 20 seconds slowly but surely any non magic dps will catch up because your CE gain will eventually cap. In addition, in single dd situations the VE from giant torcleavers will eventually pull the boss off the puppet, and at the wrong time (flash/strobe on CD) if the boss happens to choose to tp move after the pup lose hate, and happens to pick his weakness move, your DRK is about to hit the floor, which ironically solves the enmity issue immediately.
The summoner IS needed for pup to combat eventual capping of enmity. Schere can only do so much, same with dirge, the pup will hold forever but once everyone caps enmity its still going to get pulled away outside of flash and voke. Dirge slows it down but does not stop it. Overdrive can pretty handedly keep aggro on a pup during VE/CE gain but does not solve the problem once everyone is capped. With the DRK being the only DD, it's the DRK vs the puppet, unless it dies before enmity caps, the puppet will lose the war of attrition. I've done it, I've seen it. The combo of BRD *AND* SMN makes pup tank absolutely amazing because it combats the enmity problem completely. And honestly you don't need to pacify on CD, every other ward being used for PR should be enough and if you weave in your buff wards between a PR or just apogee ward into PR, it should never "Require" AC.
Edit: wrong word, mew vs pacify
Yeah, as others have pointed out, SV Dirge already caps -Enmity and that alone wouldn't have been enough to keep hate off of the DRK for the entire fight--PR was essential. DRG and RNG are also not a great option (whether piercing or Naegling) because you need slashing and multisteps to deal with the fetter mechanic. The maton can ignore the damage, but the fetters will likely hit your DDs as well.
As far as SMN being a wasted slot: thanks to PR we were actually considering replacing our WHM with a RDM in future runs because the DRK was pretty safe throughout most of the fight and the additional enfeebles would be quite useful. In any other setup you probably wouldn't be able to skip the WHM since cureskin is often a lifesaver.
Several strats I've seen use a PLD or RUN tank along with GEO to buff the DDs instead of playing it safe with PUP SMN, which works fine, but full dispel and increased TP feed make it riskier in comparison. Our setup was extremely safe and since this is a fight with a fixed 15 min time limit it doesn't matter if you win a few minutes faster or not. If you meet the DPS check and kill it before time runs out you're successful, which is all that really matters.
Also for the record, our SMN could have done more than just PR and buffs, but it was a dualboxed char and we don't use bots, so we tried to keep things simple.
As far as SMN being a wasted slot: thanks to PR we were actually considering replacing our WHM with a RDM in future runs because the DRK was pretty safe throughout most of the fight and the additional enfeebles would be quite useful. In any other setup you probably wouldn't be able to skip the WHM since cureskin is often a lifesaver.
Several strats I've seen use a PLD or RUN tank along with GEO to buff the DDs instead of playing it safe with PUP SMN, which works fine, but full dispel and increased TP feed make it riskier in comparison. Our setup was extremely safe and since this is a fight with a fixed 15 min time limit it doesn't matter if you win a few minutes faster or not. If you meet the DPS check and kill it before time runs out you're successful, which is all that really matters.
Also for the record, our SMN could have done more than just PR and buffs, but it was a dualboxed char and we don't use bots, so we tried to keep things simple.
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Aerix said: »
As far as SMN being a wasted slot: thanks to PR we were actually considering replacing our WHM with a RDM in future runs because the DRK was pretty safe throughout most of the fight and the additional enfeebles would be quite useful. In any other setup you probably wouldn't be able to skip the WHM since cureskin is often a lifesaver.
Fair enough. It's an interesting approach, and yeah... does seem like if you wanted to optimize around that kind of setup a bit more, maybe keeping the SMN and replacing the WHM with RDM would help. If you're only needing to cure a single DD and you find it is generally pretty safe, feels like the RDM SMN BRD could handle that just fine. Thanks for sharing your experience, Aerix.
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Fair enough. It's an interesting approach, and yeah... does seem like if you wanted to optimize around that kind of setup a bit more, maybe keeping the SMN and replacing the WHM with RDM would help. If you're only needing to cure a single DD and you find it is generally pretty safe, feels like the RDM SMN BRD could handle that just fine. Thanks for sharing your experience, Aerix.
Well, since subjobs aren't available in Gaol the responsibility to cure the party would lie almost entirely on the RDM, which may become iffy. And SMN BPs have too much delay, unfortunately.
It's definitely something we'll test more thoroughly once we finish up Bumba, in any case.
I barely take any damage on Kalunga as DRK if I wont pull hate.
SimonSes said: »
I barely take any damage on Kalunga as DRK if I wont pull hate.
Another good point of note, is at max melee range on Kalunga standing opposite the tank you can avoid all damage from -Ga spells cast on the tank. Our group used a Sam in the same way as the Drk it's a very friendly fight.
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SimonSes said: »
I barely take any damage on Kalunga as DRK if I wont pull hate.
Yeah I mean, if you're comfortable filling a party slot with a SMN solely to allow for PUP tanking with no enmity issues, you're kind of inherently saying you will need a lot less curing on that one in-range player (who can avoid most AoE anyway). RDM seems like it should be fine for that purpose while also adding significant debuffs to make the fight easier.
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
SimonSes said: »
I barely take any damage on Kalunga as DRK if I wont pull hate.
Yeah I mean, if you're comfortable filling a party slot with a SMN solely to allow for PUP tanking with no enmity issues, you're kind of inherently saying you will need a lot less curing on that one in-range player (who can avoid most AoE anyway). RDM seems like it should be fine for that purpose while also adding significant debuffs to make the fight easier.
Tbh, I'm actually not sure how much value a RDM would add outside of Dia 3 and perhaps Slow II. Addle II, Paralyze II and Distract III might all be impossible to land on a fire-based NM.
DNC, on the other hand, could be a really fantastic addition if TP feed isn't an issue due to Box Step, Quickstep, Haste Samba (when LR is down so Apoc isn't necessary) and instant cure power in general.
Ruaumoko said: »
Asura.Gotenn said: »
Part of my groups v15 rotation is Gogmagog, and we use a PUP tank, with RNG and MNK dealing damage. My pet usually keeps hate off the monk for 80% of the fight. But because its a rotation our job setup is PUP RDM MNK RNG BST RUN. Run just does lux for the RNG trueflight, and since my pet takes like no damage, the rdm is usually spamming dispel most of the fight. Bst, well they chunk 10% off the top, and put on that -33% defense down on.
Honestly the first few runs I went full turtle, then hybrid bone crusher spam (got about 11% parse), then went RNG tank, he took a lot more damage with ranger tank, but he was spamming defense down, so that was good for the MNK
Asura.Gotenn said: »
Honestly the first few runs I went full turtle, then hybrid bone crusher spam (got about 11% parse), then went RNG tank, he took a lot more damage with ranger tank, but he was spamming defense down, so that was good for the MNK
Is there a reason why your group's MNK isn't using Shell Crusher?
Can confirm that PUP can tank Arebati v15 very safely as well. Used PUP RNG (Gandiva) COR (Arma) BST SMN BRD as we couldn't manage to work RDM into our setup with available jobs, but damage was absolutely fine anyway and things went pretty smooth overall. HM/Minx2/AGI Etude/Dirge with Chaos/Rogue, Warcry/Crystal/Ramuh's Favor, Killer Instinct (Plantoid) and Purulent/Corrosive Ooze.
VE/VE is quite useful for the CE spike from Invincible, but it definitely has issues surviving through fetters, so 10+ Dawn Mulsums are recommended in case the second set of procs are being difficult. SoS/VE is much safer and doesn't seem to need extra mulsum healing at all, but enmity is less secure, especially when it's hit by a long-lasting Amnesia (Resisters and Water Maneuver recommended).
VE/VE is quite useful for the CE spike from Invincible, but it definitely has issues surviving through fetters, so 10+ Dawn Mulsums are recommended in case the second set of procs are being difficult. SoS/VE is much safer and doesn't seem to need extra mulsum healing at all, but enmity is less secure, especially when it's hit by a long-lasting Amnesia (Resisters and Water Maneuver recommended).
[+]
Aerix said: »
Asura.Gotenn said: »
Honestly the first few runs I went full turtle, then hybrid bone crusher spam (got about 11% parse), then went RNG tank, he took a lot more damage with ranger tank, but he was spamming defense down, so that was good for the MNK
Is there a reason why your group's MNK isn't using Shell Crusher?
Asura.Gotenn said: »
Aerix said: »
Asura.Gotenn said: »
Honestly the first few runs I went full turtle, then hybrid bone crusher spam (got about 11% parse), then went RNG tank, he took a lot more damage with ranger tank, but he was spamming defense down, so that was good for the MNK
Is there a reason why your group's MNK isn't using Shell Crusher?
Fairly certain Infernal Bulwark is +25% Attack/Defense. Defense Down would likely just be overwritten.
Sylph.Brahmsz said: »
Asura.Gotenn said: »
Aerix said: »
Asura.Gotenn said: »
Honestly the first few runs I went full turtle, then hybrid bone crusher spam (got about 11% parse), then went RNG tank, he took a lot more damage with ranger tank, but he was spamming defense down, so that was good for the MNK
Is there a reason why your group's MNK isn't using Shell Crusher?
Fairly certain Infernal Bulwark is +25% Attack/Defense. Defense Down would likely just be overwritten.
Aerix said: »
Can confirm that PUP can tank Arebati v15 very safely as well. Used PUP RNG (Gandiva) COR (Arma) BST SMN BRD as we couldn't manage to work RDM into our setup with available jobs, but damage was absolutely fine anyway and things went pretty smooth overall. HM/Minx2/AGI Etude/Dirge with Chaos/Rogue, Warcry/Crystal/Ramuh's Favor, Killer Instinct (Plantoid) and Purulent/Corrosive Ooze.
And since Gandiva is kind of a hate magnet of a RNG weapon (at least when using JR (though IDK, maybe your RNG did more Flaming Arrow?), it wouldn't be that surprising to see tweaks that could give the SS/VE puppet an even easier time with hate. I find that RNG generally does pretty well with PUP tanks especially with most of the marksmanship RMEAs.
Armageddon in particular seems like it should be phenomenal for Arebati - WF for fire damage and low enmity, strong AGI for ranged crits, Armageddon users generally have a strong crit build ready to go, and can still help for light SC as needed (including solo Last Stand->TF)
Annihilator is always great for its niche of enmity control, so pairs excellently with PUP tanks.
Gastraphetes can be a little less safe, but TF being a magical WS is still lower enmity than physical WS alternatives.
Fomalhaut is maybe the most challenging option when DDing with a PUP tank (frequent Last Stand presents some enmity challenges), but can rely more on Trueflight for lower enmity, mix in some solid WF for hate management as needed, and just use Last Stand as necessary for light SCs/damage.
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Armageddon in particular seems like it should be phenomenal for Arebati - WF for fire damage and low enmity, strong AGI for ranged crits
Crits yeah. I generally can kill Arebati with just white damage (with COR helping), but Wildfire no. Wildfire does like 700-1000 damage. Maybe with macc buffs it could get better, but I doubt that would be beneficial. With physical ranged buffs I was doing up to 45k (double crits) damage per round with Hover and Double shot and thats not from sweet spot and I havent had Oneiros knife at that time too.
[+]
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Aerix said: »
Can confirm that PUP can tank Arebati v15 very safely as well. Used PUP RNG (Gandiva) COR (Arma) BST SMN BRD as we couldn't manage to work RDM into our setup with available jobs, but damage was absolutely fine anyway and things went pretty smooth overall. HM/Minx2/AGI Etude/Dirge with Chaos/Rogue, Warcry/Crystal/Ramuh's Favor, Killer Instinct (Plantoid) and Purulent/Corrosive Ooze.
And since Gandiva is kind of a hate magnet of a RNG weapon (at least when using JR (though IDK, maybe your RNG did more Flaming Arrow?), it wouldn't be that surprising to see tweaks that could give the SS/VE puppet an even easier time with hate. I find that RNG generally does pretty well with PUP tanks especially with most of the marksmanship RMEAs.
Armageddon in particular seems like it should be phenomenal for Arebati - WF for fire damage and low enmity, strong AGI for ranged crits, Armageddon users generally have a strong crit build ready to go, and can still help for light SC as needed (including solo Last Stand->TF)
Annihilator is always great for its niche of enmity control, so pairs excellently with PUP tanks.
Gastraphetes can be a little less safe, but TF being a magical WS is still lower enmity than physical WS alternatives.
Fomalhaut is maybe the most challenging option when DDing with a PUP tank (frequent Last Stand presents some enmity challenges), but can rely more on Trueflight for lower enmity, mix in some solid WF for hate management as needed, and just use Last Stand as necessary for light SCs/damage.
So Fomalhaut works very well for arebati, but I do believe the ranged empyrean weapons will Reign Supreme simple for am3. On V15 no weaponskills broke 5 digits on anything other than ranged physical ws. All skill chain damage was tiny. Ranged is definitely the comp, and am3 double/triple shot with empy am3 being a huge winner. If the brd in party has tauret can run in when aura starts with 0 tp in order to help proc. And then just pray that your am3 crit sets bring you home. We didn't have a pup tank and opted for pld, does decoy work with pup tank or no? Because I'm sure that would be amazing if it did, just have the rng basically ply the tank with all the enmity possible lol
Decoy doesn't work for automaton. Also we killed Arebati few times (once from 95%) without proccing Aura. PLD could just survive it no problem usually. Problem is when you pull hate on RNG because COR doing not enough damage, then Aura becomes a problem.
[+]
As we all know, the nicest part about having a PUP tank for Arebati (compared to PLD) is that it needs no support like WHM or SCH, so you can use that party slot for SMN without losing anything.
A decently charged Ramuh's Favor is more crit rate than Rogue's Roll and really helps with those spicy AM3 double/triple shot crits. Around 50% HP remaining the SMN can just Conduit Pacifying Ruby to clear most of the Enmity from the RNG and COR so you can just go all-out until the end without much worry about pulling hate.
A decently charged Ramuh's Favor is more crit rate than Rogue's Roll and really helps with those spicy AM3 double/triple shot crits. Around 50% HP remaining the SMN can just Conduit Pacifying Ruby to clear most of the Enmity from the RNG and COR so you can just go all-out until the end without much worry about pulling hate.
[+]
Am I missing something super obvious here? The overdrive (no SoA ring) set is:
ItemSet 378469
Which seems to overcap pet haste. Isn’t 10 from the ambu cape + sash and su3 (28 total) overcapping haste? Why use tali’ah feet too? Wouldn’t mpaca feet be much better?
ItemSet 378469
Which seems to overcap pet haste. Isn’t 10 from the ambu cape + sash and su3 (28 total) overcapping haste? Why use tali’ah feet too? Wouldn’t mpaca feet be much better?
The cape, is not that cape. Common mistake, they're the same dat.
(What augments do I want?) Tp Bonus 500 the only one that matters
(What augments do I want?) Tp Bonus 500 the only one that matters
[+]
Knew I was missing something silly...thanks!
[+]
The BLM pet doesn't need a scanner it has one built in, this is old news.
SimonSes said: »
Decoy doesn't work for automaton. Also we killed Arebati few times (once from 95%) without proccing Aura. PLD could just survive it no problem usually. Problem is when you pull hate on RNG because COR doing not enough damage, then Aura becomes a problem.
We use PUP (RNG mode) on Arabati farms. Something unusual happened other day was wondering if you experienced this before. Burtgang PLD did his Atonement and Flash at start, then PUP used Overdrive after I would say good 15 sec post Atonement, Arebati jumped up, turned and one shoted the puppetmaster instead and didn't even touch the automaton. Overdrive was on for only like 5 sec...isn't automaton supposed to have hate? Why did it kill the master?
& on the Aura, in the beginning its not too bad to power through it, but towards the end tank and healer are having difficult time keeping up
Mrfluffy said: »
The BLM pet doesn't need a scanner it has one built in, this is old news.
Not sure what prompted this comment, but the Scanner definitely has a useful effect on the BLMaton. Not only does it stop Aspir spam on dark-based mobs to make the maton focus purely on nuking, but in some cases it also restricts the elements it nukes to only the most effective ones (i.e. primarily Fire on Crom Dubh instead of a mix).
That is to say the Scanner isn't always necessary nor helpful, as it indeed doesn't do anything at all sometimes, but things have always been very situational with PUP to begin with.
Tested 1 wind maneuver
Legs off ranged dmg- 2741
Legs on ranged dmg- 2795
Tested triple fire
Legs off ranged dmg- 3064
Legs on ranged dmg- 3125
Armor Shatterer Fire Light Wind
Legs off armor shatterer- 18053
Legs on armor shatterer- 18414
[+]
Asura.Bixbite said: »
Tested 1 wind maneuver
Legs off ranged dmg- 2741
Legs on ranged dmg- 2795
Tested triple fire
Legs off ranged dmg- 3064
Legs on ranged dmg- 3125
Armor Shatterer is a 4 hit might be messing with your test there
The other two tests make sense as it comes out to like 1.9%ish tho
edit: you edited your post as I was doin mine!
edit2:
Asura.Bixbite said: »
Armor Shatterer Fire Light Wind
Legs off armor shatterer- 18053
Legs on armor shatterer- 18414
thats 1.9ish there as well
Yes you are right i kept seeing variations in numbers. Some were 4% some 2% which is uncommon for these automaton special dmg+ stats.
So yeah its just a 2% dmg boost lol...
Not worth it unless you only play pet based pup. Even then its hard giving up an entirely new playstyle for other jobs like Geo who didn't have access to an amazing tp set until Nyame.
So yeah its just a 2% dmg boost lol...
Not worth it unless you only play pet based pup. Even then its hard giving up an entirely new playstyle for other jobs like Geo who didn't have access to an amazing tp set until Nyame.
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