Dev Tracker - Discussion

I think it's a matter of semantics. I'd agree that the more difficult goal is getting the number of players with job variety or willingness to prepare new jobs. However, that's most of the game. There hasn't really been any content in the game's lifespan that required a harder execution than Odyssey. If you are willing to accept that Odyssey is not a gameplay challenge, it goes to reason that you must also accept FFXI does not have gameplay challenges. I can get behind this take, I have always felt that FFXI is more of a preparation game.

I maintain, as I've said in numerous threads, that the RNG argument is pure cope. No group with a perfected strategy and job composition is crying about RNG on T3s. They might've had to try a few times, but they got the clear. I'd also argue that the statistical likelihood of a group performing at the highest level failing Bumba more than 10 consecutive times is negligible. Most of the groups who blame RNG are unwilling to accept that they had chances to win and screwed up their end of it.

Yes, it is absolutely a preparation game. Always has been.

I wasn't saying groups are crying about RNG-Jesus, yes I agree that is cope. I am pointing out that most groups don't go the "let's prepare 18jobs so we can do the content", they go the RNG-Jesus route then wonder why they keep failing.

Is it the player's fault? Sure. At the same time the very fact you need 18 different fully geared jobs between 6 people while at the same time also selling additional wardrobes for $2 a month grates, with me, a hell of a lot.

I find it very hard to rebut at the point Thorny made about RNG.
It pains me to admit it, but he's right. Have a group of 6 people execute the strategy the same way 10 times in a row against any of those V25 fights, I don't think it possible it will take more of that amount of attempts with the same level of execution to get a win.

We could argue the amount of error admitted (i.e. how close you have to be to the ideal "perfect execution of the strategy") is not very large... Beause let's face it, it's not. And I would dare to say it's the smallest we've ever had probably in any type of end-game content in FFXI's history.
Yet this margin, as small as it may be, is not zero, it's never exactly zero.


Still, while people have been using the RNG as a scapegoat for failures way more than they should have over these boards, I can't deny there is an RNG factor in some of those fights that is probably a bit higher than it should've been, in terms of fair game balance.

With all due respect, I think your ability to comment fairly on Odyssey is undermined by the fact you haven't done it. None of the fights require 3 KI to attain a respectable winrate. Kalunga/Ngai/Xevioso are quite reasonably done in 1 KI, and the rest typically use 2(though 1-KI Ongo can still get a pretty decent winrate).

I cannot give exact numbers, but I suspect a group that is fully prepared and makes no major gameplay mistakes can:
-Achieve 50% or greater winrate on Kalunga, Ngai, Xevioso, Ongo in 1 KI
-Achieve 90%+ winrate on Mboze with 2 KIs [with losses coming from connection problems or freak occasions, not things inherent to the fight]
-Achieve 30-50% range on Arebati with 2 KIs.

It isn't a choice between trying 3 KI strategies and fighting ridiculous odds, it just comes down to a lot of groups being less prepared than they believe they are.

I was going to write something like this, but I'm always "that guy" so I just clicked away.

I think I'd put the %s lower, but either way I'd say <10 tries for any T3 if you have a good plan and everyone does their jobs well. We've beaten 5/6 in the last 3ish months, and haven't attempted Arebati (the 6th) in a while.

A lot of people aren't willing to be critical, about their own performance or their teammates, and just chalk up every failure to RNG.

Exact percents are difficult, because I don't think anyone is sitting there logging 20 consecutive attempts(and fatigue would set in anyway). I also don't think many groups rise to the level of fully prepared either, the amount of job variety required means there will likely be people less than BiS in some compositions. Expecting R30 Nyame on people who are doing their first clear is unrealistic, for example. I don't think my percents are unfair for the theoretical of fully maxed out players doing everything correctly.

In practice, the rates will be lower, but they are certainly not low enough to be the primary factor in people failing to clear. If you're losing over and over, it's very unlikely to be caused by RNG.

My group runs at max 2 hours a night and we run a roster that is larger than 6 people so we have people switching in and out of roles depending on the day of the week. It's very clear that player consistency is the hardest part of these fight because of how we run. Hopefully you know when you just played like ***, can figure out ways to do better, and communicate that to your group so you're all on the same page. And even more so that you remember those changes the next time you are doing the same content but with different people who might also be going through a learning process.

Preparation that leads to consistency is super important for v25s. Blaming RNG is just a way to not work on consistency.

I agree, hence the caveats wrt to lack of experience.

I am commenting based on what I am seeing my friend's groups do and what their success rate is on T3 V25. It's a lot lower than that. I make no comment on their ability to execute the strategy, not seen it not done it.

Recently been going through my V25 clears due to playing catch up. Lost a 1/1 Xevioso because I forgot Reraise and dying on WHM. it was pure luck I died ;p terrible content.

jk though, Odyssey has been fun excluding segments -_- actually good content/design on bosses except Bumba.

From my experience so far, albeit 2 years after V25s came out, none of the V25s seem luck based at all in the slightest except from Bumba. Take my experience with a grain of salt because I am using already tried and tested strats. Each boss only had 1-3 people per run who had cleared. So less people who can claim "no experience" But yeah the only boss that our group could claim luck based was a 1 Key Item Ongo we did. We didn't have the coordination/gear to power through a bad aura sub 40% if we didn't have a wild card reset. But overall it could be done.

Looking back on the v25 wins now, most of the "RNG" was really more ironing out wrinkles here and there and finding what compositions worked better for our specific group. Most wins/losses were not influenced by "good/bad auras" whatsoever once we figured out the latter.

My personal opinion is that individuals going through it the first time are so fixated on strictly following an exact strategy that's posted and that may not actually be what works best for that particular group so they associate mishaps and losses to RNG rather than actually taking time and reviewing possible options to better improve their specific group play.

Some gave us more of a headache than others for sure, but again slight adjustments to compositions and buffs with specific roles using SP's that didn't need it in subsequent 1,2 and or even 3KI approaches was what got us the wins... not getting "lucky" on aura's(aside from the bumbles).

I can agree. From everything I've heard/read. Like even when I wasn't really playing the last 2-3 years for Odyssey/Sortie I still kept up with strats/thoughts etc. So many people were hyper fixated on auras (praying for the stars to align) over refining their own strats and execution. I understand when the content was new luck MAY have influenced a win because less practice, extra gear to push their dps slightly more etc and that's fine, but it doesn't mean all V25s, or majority of them required RNG like many people have claimed.
I do think personal experiences will differ vastly across people solely because of their strat used. Personally? I don't think any V25s are luck based except Bumba solely because of the current strat used and no one can figure out another method.