Ragnarok.Phuoc said: »
lolMNK!!
Reisenjima T4s
Reisenjima T4s
MNK *groan*, almost done getting it to 2100. *** this job was a PITA to get to deal mediocre damage. H2H WS's need updated badly, melee damage is fine but god the WS are just bleh stacked with more bleh. It's only saving grace is that it's good as a SC partner to setup another DD's powerful closer.
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Asura.Saevel said: »
"There is nothing really wrong with AC SMN zergs"...
"We have a few members making Nirvana's...."
Yeah....
"We have a few members making Nirvana's...."
Yeah....
Got a couple of members making Terpischore's too (me included) guess we're on that ever-hot DNC bandwagon lol.
Seems like a a classic case of confirmation bias to me.
So, I can see the concern if there are shouts for SMN only. Not unlike the BLU only so defended by many here, or the BST only so reviled by many here that hate when pet jobs get the attention.
We aren't seeing any of that on Fenrir.
The problem with nerfing pet jobs is that, when SE does it, they just become bad and nearly unusable again. They do not benefit from the same buffs, so you can't mix/match pet jobs with classical melee jobs no matter how much you may want to... Unless you view pet jobs as only existing to buff your classic melee jobs.
Imagine if they decided to nerf your favorite DD job by making it so whenever you are behind a mob, you get the message that you are out of range whenever you try to WS. That's what they did to BST, unless said BST is just trying to kill fodder no one cares about. Everything else is too big.
So, unless you can think of a way to adjust SMN that allows it to DD and work within your favored strategies rather than just once again becoming a loljob that can't even team up with other pet jobs to kill things, y'all need to move along.
Because if people want to AH/Ambuscade their way to gear up SMN and bypass all the B.S. of gearing up GEO/WHM/BRD so they can team up with the people that have already gotten their Aeonics in whatever socially accepted method exists at the time for the drops they really want... I see no problem with it. It is just a different path.
We aren't seeing any of that on Fenrir.
The problem with nerfing pet jobs is that, when SE does it, they just become bad and nearly unusable again. They do not benefit from the same buffs, so you can't mix/match pet jobs with classical melee jobs no matter how much you may want to... Unless you view pet jobs as only existing to buff your classic melee jobs.
Imagine if they decided to nerf your favorite DD job by making it so whenever you are behind a mob, you get the message that you are out of range whenever you try to WS. That's what they did to BST, unless said BST is just trying to kill fodder no one cares about. Everything else is too big.
So, unless you can think of a way to adjust SMN that allows it to DD and work within your favored strategies rather than just once again becoming a loljob that can't even team up with other pet jobs to kill things, y'all need to move along.
Because if people want to AH/Ambuscade their way to gear up SMN and bypass all the B.S. of gearing up GEO/WHM/BRD so they can team up with the people that have already gotten their Aeonics in whatever socially accepted method exists at the time for the drops they really want... I see no problem with it. It is just a different path.
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Asura.Saevel said: »
MNK *groan*, almost done getting it to 2100. *** this job was a PITA to get to deal mediocre damage. H2H WS's need updated badly, melee damage is fine but god the WS are just bleh stacked with more bleh. It's only saving grace is that it's good as a SC partner to setup another DD's powerful closer.
Aren't mnks one of like 3 jobs actively hurt by being job master or getting certain job point categories?
On Asura at least, there are a decent number of shouts for stuff like WoC, Kirin, T4 Reisenjima, Omen, etc, where about half of the desired members are Summoner, and shouts for the first three basically never request any other DDs.
I've never seen one of those on Fenrir.
Not in this graveyard, you won't.
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If you do, it won't end well.
Asura.Frod said: »
Aren't mnks one of like 3 jobs actively hurt by being job master or getting certain job point categories?
And it's not a matter of doing less damage with 2100 than you do with 0, because Gifts and JPs give many other benefits.
It's just that you won't do as high as you could without that single shitty Gift category.
I think there is not ONE summoner who wouldn't rather have consistent damage over being an AC *** for those fights. But then again, i can totally see how, if that was the case, the argument would become "it's a backline job wth, no way it does 87,1337% of my war's damage", or the far worse "i had to spend 3 billions to do this kind of damage with my drg".
Someone wrote that this kind of SP *abuse* compromises the longevity of the game, and i totally agree with that, except we're talking about 2 years old content, and the fact that no harder content has been released for that long compromises the longevity of the game far more.
And that other guy complains about such an unbalanced abomination, then proceeds to log his 12 characters and bot his way through those same helms whose *difficulty* should be preserved in the centuries to come.
That being said i'm not saying AC is balanced or that they won't nerf it (eventually), just sad this game has come to this: when the community stops fighting the NMs and starts fighting over (others') parse, that's an alarm sign the game might truly be dead.
Someone wrote that this kind of SP *abuse* compromises the longevity of the game, and i totally agree with that, except we're talking about 2 years old content, and the fact that no harder content has been released for that long compromises the longevity of the game far more.
And that other guy complains about such an unbalanced abomination, then proceeds to log his 12 characters and bot his way through those same helms whose *difficulty* should be preserved in the centuries to come.
That being said i'm not saying AC is balanced or that they won't nerf it (eventually), just sad this game has come to this: when the community stops fighting the NMs and starts fighting over (others') parse, that's an alarm sign the game might truly be dead.
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Asura.Xijaah said: »
when the community stops fighting the NMs and starts fighting over (others') parse, that's an alarm sign the game might truly be dead.
I mean, in different ways but this has pretty much been happening more or less always? Or at least for a quite long period of time? Way before the AC thing.
Also I don't see how that even remotely relates to a game being alive or dead, really.
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Asura.Xijaah said: »
when the community stops fighting the NMs and starts fighting over (others') parse, that's an alarm sign the game might truly be dead.
I mean, in different ways but this has pretty much been happening more or less always? Or at least for a quite long period of time? Way before the AC thing.
Also I don't see how that even remotely relates to a game being alive or dead, really.
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What's wrong going on a crusade on a matter of principle?
I see nothing wrong with it, you do it under the principle of what you honestly believe to be the best for the game, and not just for you (wether you're wrong or right, is a different story)
I think you're talking about something else, like noble people ranting at plebe finally allowed in their previously locked area of the city.
I can understand your point if this is what you're talking of but I think it has little to do with something being a matter of principle.
I see nothing wrong with it, you do it under the principle of what you honestly believe to be the best for the game, and not just for you (wether you're wrong or right, is a different story)
I think you're talking about something else, like noble people ranting at plebe finally allowed in their previously locked area of the city.
I can understand your point if this is what you're talking of but I think it has little to do with something being a matter of principle.
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Asura.Sechs said: »
What's wrong going on a crusade on a matter of principle?
I see nothing wrong with it, you do it under the principle of what you honestly believe to be the best for the game, and not just for you (wether you're wrong or right, is a different story)
I think you're talking about something else, like noble people ranting at plebe finally allowed in their previously locked area of the city.
I can understand your point if this is what you're talking of but I think it has little to do with something being a matter of principle.
I see nothing wrong with it, you do it under the principle of what you honestly believe to be the best for the game, and not just for you (wether you're wrong or right, is a different story)
I think you're talking about something else, like noble people ranting at plebe finally allowed in their previously locked area of the city.
I can understand your point if this is what you're talking of but I think it has little to do with something being a matter of principle.
[+]
I realize we've had this discussion for... 14 years now? I don't have my Masters Degree on this topic, but aren't most players content with just waiting it out? Every time Enmity, accuracy, status, or damage taken becomes an issue, we always just shift into the next strat of the "Big 4" for 6-8 months. The pattern seems to be Ranged > Pet > Magic > Melee > repeat, and a lot of players just kind of go with the flow.
I think the only difference this time is RNG lost their turn; technically, they should be pretty popular due to Caturae endgame, later obnoxious HELM fights, and the Vex nerf, but they just happened to be usurped by a job that was able to avoid the pet nerfs (And arguably fulfill the same role with greater ease). I do agree with those who say our content is perhaps the most diverse it's ever been. I also believe a nerf is imminent, and something else will come along to replace it for 80% of the content out there... but in the meantime, all we can do is wait and enjoy the handful of fights that still promote diversity. It's not much comfort for such an ancient game, but what else can we (physically) do?
Anyway, I only clicked on this topic because I wanted to know if people were still using PUP to tank fights like Teles and Shach for some of the newer strats. It appears based on this discussion, it may be a pointless question, unless someone can cite an experience to the contrary.
I think the only difference this time is RNG lost their turn; technically, they should be pretty popular due to Caturae endgame, later obnoxious HELM fights, and the Vex nerf, but they just happened to be usurped by a job that was able to avoid the pet nerfs (And arguably fulfill the same role with greater ease). I do agree with those who say our content is perhaps the most diverse it's ever been. I also believe a nerf is imminent, and something else will come along to replace it for 80% of the content out there... but in the meantime, all we can do is wait and enjoy the handful of fights that still promote diversity. It's not much comfort for such an ancient game, but what else can we (physically) do?
Anyway, I only clicked on this topic because I wanted to know if people were still using PUP to tank fights like Teles and Shach for some of the newer strats. It appears based on this discussion, it may be a pointless question, unless someone can cite an experience to the contrary.
We've tried PUP on stuff like Vinipata but quickly reverted to using conventional tanks (either PLD or RUN) because its generally a bit more controllable in a pinch, and quicker to setup for initial positioning and whatnot.
COR and RNG are our goto for DD on Schah and Albumen. It works great. Vinipata is really the only fight where SMN is our preferred choice for ranged dps. The rest of the T4's (plus WoC and Kirin) we just do with straight melee or nukes.
COR and RNG are our goto for DD on Schah and Albumen. It works great. Vinipata is really the only fight where SMN is our preferred choice for ranged dps. The rest of the T4's (plus WoC and Kirin) we just do with straight melee or nukes.
People who abuse SMN AC talking about how they should be find abusing SMN AC... where have we heard that before.
So tomorrow SE releases this amazing new dynamic content with some really nice gear upgrades and ....
People will immediately use SMN AC zergs to beat it
It will become so effective that nobody will bother doing it without using SMN AC zergs (this is already starting to happen)
Those without SMN geared or one of the required support jobs will be told by the SMN bandwagoners "lrn2ply" (their already doing it)
Game diversity meta is destroyed.
How is this in any way a good thing? This has happened a few times in the past, once with RNG's on HNM's back when ranged attacks weren't penalized by level correction, then again recently with BST's and THF's and now with SMN's. Hell there was even a period of time when 2H's were doing godly damage due to STR and DEX being 1:1 and new attack cap coming after Level Correction. All that ***was patched down because it created a result that was more dramatic then the developers intended.
Anyhow the nerf is coming, most likely in the next two to three months. The JP's have complained enough that the developers, who read the JP forums, are already aware. They are most likely looking at what can be done without rolling back the recent damage changes.
But yeah SMN's keep telling yourselves your not abusing a mechanic and SE will totally ignore your ability to break content, or even more delusional that SE will completely break the game in order to let SMN's keep their broken mechanic.
So tomorrow SE releases this amazing new dynamic content with some really nice gear upgrades and ....
People will immediately use SMN AC zergs to beat it
It will become so effective that nobody will bother doing it without using SMN AC zergs (this is already starting to happen)
Those without SMN geared or one of the required support jobs will be told by the SMN bandwagoners "lrn2ply" (their already doing it)
Game diversity meta is destroyed.
How is this in any way a good thing? This has happened a few times in the past, once with RNG's on HNM's back when ranged attacks weren't penalized by level correction, then again recently with BST's and THF's and now with SMN's. Hell there was even a period of time when 2H's were doing godly damage due to STR and DEX being 1:1 and new attack cap coming after Level Correction. All that ***was patched down because it created a result that was more dramatic then the developers intended.
Anyhow the nerf is coming, most likely in the next two to three months. The JP's have complained enough that the developers, who read the JP forums, are already aware. They are most likely looking at what can be done without rolling back the recent damage changes.
But yeah SMN's keep telling yourselves your not abusing a mechanic and SE will totally ignore your ability to break content, or even more delusional that SE will completely break the game in order to let SMN's keep their broken mechanic.
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Zeak said: »
Anyway, I only clicked on this topic because I wanted to know if people were still using PUP to tank fights like Teles and Shach for some of the newer strats. It appears based on this discussion, it may be a pointless question, unless someone can cite an experience to the contrary.
We haven't used PUP to tank those fights in over a year, those were only used early on when people didn't know how to deal with their mechanics. PUP tanking is super niche, works well when survivability is more important then high enmity generation or when the other DD's are pets. We like to use PUP tank on Fu because our group happens to have one of the best PUP tanks on the server and it's a perfect fight for him to stretch his legs.
Asura.Xijaah said: »
I think there is not ONE summoner who wouldn't rather have consistent damage over being an AC *** for those fights.
*raises hand*
Whenever I was a fledgling RNG/DRG/SMN/etc/etc back in the day and came across someone who crushed me in the parse, I'd ask to see their gear sets and watch what they're doing and try and learn from them. Now if we focus on SMN AC burning, can we do it there? Is there any potential learning curve? Nope! They're doing something that any halfwit can do, but what everyone else who can't do it lack is the gear. In the past, I'd look at those SMNs and say "How can I get on their level?" and try to improve. There is no curve there this time - that's just how mundanely easy this is. Mythics are nothing but a time sink: nothing about them is 'difficult', per se, and if you're exceedingly rich you could make one in a week. I therefore don't recognise a Nirvana as a 'barrier' to stop people from doing this like some people are claiming. Hell, even without a mythic a SMN AC burn is pretty effective on a lot of content.
That structure of content should ring alarm bells in anyone that enjoys this game and wants it to last. Instant gratification has never been one of XI's strong points and in a market of games that chuck progression at you that's always been one of its strongest traits. Bosses have required a steady group curve to sufficiently practise mechanics or have required farming effort to gear yourself up in order to outdo your limitations and take the boss down. Let's say, hypothetically, that a new linkshell wants to take down the T4s and whack out some Aeonics. All they'd need to do is gear up a few SMNs and get them a Nirvana and within a week or two they'd be taking down the "hardest bosses in the game" with next to no effort. Do you really not see the problem with that? These T4s are supposed to be the apex of progression in this game. We have people with every Aeonic and most of them probably owe most of them to SMN AC burning. Doesn't that make you a little bit uncomfortable? It should. If you want to see how mundane and boring a game becomes when you beat everything in a few weeks, go and play XIV.
I love SMN and it's always been one of my cherished jobs but anyone saying this doesn't need nerfing can't see the forest for the trees.
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It isn't just SMNs, though. There is a tank (RUN), support (GEO(s) and COR(s)) and then the main DD(s) (SMN(s).
So your hypothetical linkshell would still need to develop a tank and some support jobs. Gearing them up is no more or less difficult than gearing up any other job. Please spare me the Nirvana is not a barrier but the items of other jobs are defense.
I'm seeing this as more of a traditional set-up vs. pet set-up issue, where the traditionals aren't happy unless pet jobs are unusable.
Can the traditional set-ups work? Yes.
Can the pet set-ups work? Well, at one time, BST could. Now it largely can't. Now the SMNs are being targeted.
I wish the GEO nerf could have happened before the BST nerf. Then both approaches would still work.
I see the point about how one approach shouldn't dominate all content. But I don't see excluding an entire job type (pets) for all content as a solution.
Which is what I think Frod has been saying for pages, and me, though not at directly: Stop nerfing jobs. Make smarter content.
It has to be done this way, because, due to the buff structure of the game, pets and traditionals cannot co-exist in the same party effectively. So Pets need a place at the table, also.
So your hypothetical linkshell would still need to develop a tank and some support jobs. Gearing them up is no more or less difficult than gearing up any other job. Please spare me the Nirvana is not a barrier but the items of other jobs are defense.
I'm seeing this as more of a traditional set-up vs. pet set-up issue, where the traditionals aren't happy unless pet jobs are unusable.
Can the traditional set-ups work? Yes.
Can the pet set-ups work? Well, at one time, BST could. Now it largely can't. Now the SMNs are being targeted.
I wish the GEO nerf could have happened before the BST nerf. Then both approaches would still work.
I see the point about how one approach shouldn't dominate all content. But I don't see excluding an entire job type (pets) for all content as a solution.
Which is what I think Frod has been saying for pages, and me, though not at directly: Stop nerfing jobs. Make smarter content.
It has to be done this way, because, due to the buff structure of the game, pets and traditionals cannot co-exist in the same party effectively. So Pets need a place at the table, also.
COR needs a barataria ring(50k on AH) and literally nothing else
RUN needs essentially no gear either, since battuta will last the entire fight and odyllic subterfuge will last most/all of it.. any 5/5 119 set will be sufficient
GEO needs gear or idris, preferably both. Unfortunate, but every setup needs a competent GEO regardless.
SMN needs one set that they never swap out of.
Please, you're embarassing yourself. No other DPS can get away with having one set and no swaps. No other setup kills fast enough to eliminate the burden of gear on the tank. No other setup can put out even half as much as the same party size of buffed smns can in the first minute. In schah's case, no other setup can kill it without dealing with adds or fight mechanics.
RUN needs essentially no gear either, since battuta will last the entire fight and odyllic subterfuge will last most/all of it.. any 5/5 119 set will be sufficient
GEO needs gear or idris, preferably both. Unfortunate, but every setup needs a competent GEO regardless.
SMN needs one set that they never swap out of.
Please, you're embarassing yourself. No other DPS can get away with having one set and no swaps. No other setup kills fast enough to eliminate the burden of gear on the tank. No other setup can put out even half as much as the same party size of buffed smns can in the first minute. In schah's case, no other setup can kill it without dealing with adds or fight mechanics.
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Aeyela said: »
Asura.Xijaah said: »
I think there is not ONE summoner who wouldn't rather have consistent damage over being an AC *** for those fights.
*raises hand*
Whenever I was a fledgling RNG/DRG/SMN/etc/etc back in the day and came across someone who crushed me in the parse, I'd ask to see their gear sets and watch what they're doing and try and learn from them. Now if we focus on SMN AC burning, can we do it there? Is there any potential learning curve? Nope! They're doing something that any halfwit can do, but what everyone else who can't do it lack is the gear. In the past, I'd look at those SMNs and say "How can I get on their level?" and try to improve. There is no curve there this time - that's just how mundanely easy this is. Mythics are nothing but a time sink: nothing about them is 'difficult', per se, and if you're exceedingly rich you could make one in a week. I therefore don't recognise a Nirvana as a 'barrier' to stop people from doing this like some people are claiming. Hell, even without a mythic a SMN AC burn is pretty effective on a lot of content.
That structure of content should ring alarm bells in anyone that enjoys this game and wants it to last. Instant gratification has never been one of XI's strong points and in a market of games that chuck progression at you that's always been one of its strongest traits. Bosses have required a steady group curve to sufficiently practise mechanics or have required farming effort to gear yourself up in order to outdo your limitations and take the boss down. Let's say, hypothetically, that a new linkshell wants to take down the T4s and whack out some Aeonics. All they'd need to do is gear up a few SMNs and get them a Nirvana and within a week or two they'd be taking down the "hardest bosses in the game" with next to no effort. Do you really not see the problem with that? These T4s are supposed to be the apex of progression in this game. We have people with every Aeonic and most of them probably owe most of them to SMN AC burning. Doesn't that make you a little bit uncomfortable? It should. If you want to see how mundane and boring a game becomes when you beat everything in a few weeks, go and play XIV.
I love SMN and it's always been one of my cherished jobs but anyone saying this doesn't need nerfing can't see the forest for the trees.
i think its funny u mentioned the people that are asking smn to be nerfed. 1/2 the people that are saying it dont realize there's alot more that goes into smn than just a nirvana. i recently learned this when I decided to hop on the bandwagon. i put 500m into smn in about 2 weeks and had nothing to show for it. theres 2 reasons for this: 1st is lack of job points. these are huge, im already seeing a huge increase in dmg from the 500 i have. the 2nd one is my own ignorance. smn is alot more than hitting volt strike a few times with conduit active so saying anyone can do this couldnt be more false. another thing is i have all the aeonics and only 4 of them were smn burned and no i dont feel uncomfortable. the only thing im uncomfortable with is i cant keep the #1 spot om asura for longer than a day.
No matter how they design the content, there will always be people that will take the cheapest, quickest or easiest path to beating that content. That's an everlasting truth of any player base and it's not unique to XI. There'll always be people cheesing it. The best any developer team can do is make changes to those methods as and when they're needed. Unfortunately, given SE's track record, they will all but certainly respond to this by nerfing SMN in such a way that it lowers the job's performance outside of the only situation it's being abused.
There's a lot more that goes into every job than their REMA and only idiots think otherwise.
Asura.Boogerballs said: »
i think its funny u mentioned the people that are asking smn to be nerfed. 1/2 the people that are saying it dont realize there's alot more that goes into smn than just a nirvana.
There's a lot more that goes into every job than their REMA and only idiots think otherwise.
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Aeyela said: »
We have people with every Aeonic and most of them probably owe most of them to SMN AC burning. Doesn't that make you a little bit uncomfortable? It should.
Furthermore Helms are not "progress" anymore, as it's reasonable given how old they are.
I do agree that it would be very bad if they were to add another endgame batch of NMs that got trivialized by smns. Or blms. Or blus, for that matter. In a normal, healthy game the devs make sure such a thing can't happen by adding certain mechanics/resistances. For example (trivial), a draw-in/deathga that occurs if you nuke it too fast, or a pain-sync-like mechanic. Such things would put a stop to any kind of abuse, by whatever job/setup.
All I've been reading though is the same "nerf smn" stuff, and i wonder why, since 100% of the reasons brought to the table are "they break the game".
It almost sounds like you still want those fights to be zergable, though only by the jobs you say are OK to zerg them with; so where do we draw the line? Price tag?
Also guys, maybe it's me, but this "nerf" front of the debate truly sounds bitter; maybe get some relax, if that's the case?
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
COR needs a barataria ring(50k on AH) and literally nothing else
RUN needs essentially no gear either, since battuta will last the entire fight and odyllic subterfuge will last most/all of it.. any 5/5 119 set will be sufficient
GEO needs gear or idris, preferably both. Unfortunate, but every setup needs a competent GEO regardless.
SMN needs one set that they never swap out of.
RUN needs essentially no gear either, since battuta will last the entire fight and odyllic subterfuge will last most/all of it.. any 5/5 119 set will be sufficient
GEO needs gear or idris, preferably both. Unfortunate, but every setup needs a competent GEO regardless.
SMN needs one set that they never swap out of.
I'd like to see this.
Can anyone capable of this method video some of these fights with total trash in the party?
No job points, please. You have to be total trash.
COR has to be completely naked but for a ring.
RUN needs 119 gear. Please make the gear choices as irrelevant to the task at hand as possible. No +1 anything. No augments.
Perfect GEO is allowed, I guess. That's mighty generous. If you want to try this on Fenrir, I'll GEO for you.
SMNs must lock their gear. No swaps. I'm not sure how good you otherwise need to be... Nirvana only? Job points or no job points? I guess, come as badly as you can so we can see just how powerful this method is.
[+]
There is nothing to see. It's exactly how the fights play out. With most NMs dying within one minute of spawn using a SMN zerg, a GEO can handle all the healing easily.
As long as SMNs are master with a good physical set, the rest of the party can be in scraps. I wouldn't be surprised if the RUN didn't even need to be 119.
As long as SMNs are master with a good physical set, the rest of the party can be in scraps. I wouldn't be surprised if the RUN didn't even need to be 119.
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