~First And Final Line Of Defense V2.0~

It has a metric tonne of Acc and Att, and solo you need as much as you can get to have capped acc and maximize PDT.

DPS Spreadsheet shows Relic+3 beating all other gear by a decent bit except for Sulevia+2, which it only beats by a bit. Sulevia+2 feet win though.

Also punched in Odyssean and Valourous gear with Acc/Att+15 augs, and a DA+5% or WSD+5%. Relic+3 still won except a Odyssean head with WSD

Based on that, I get the following two builds as appearing optimal for higher eva mobs (Delve NM and higher)

Chant:
ItemSet 359871
(Valorous with Acc+15 Att+15 DA+5%)
(Cape with Dex+30, Att/Acc+20, DA+10%)

DPS With Chant at 1000 TP, not including extra solo light SC dmg:
688.435

Savage Blade:
ItemSet 360396
(Oddyssean with Att/Acc+15, WSD+5%)
(Cape with Str+30, Att/Acc+20, WSD+10%)
(Moonshade with TpBonus+Attack)

DPS With Savage at 1550 TP (Seems to be sweet spot to maximize DPS), and wont solo light SC:
660

Based on that it looks to me like Chant wins, once you add in the solo light SC as well I think it wins even harder.

Well yeah, I'm aware. I'm just explaining how spreadsheet works, the ws dmg that shows on ws tab actually isn't spike, but avg in very long runs. If spreadsheet says cdc ws 23000, it probably means the highest spike is much higher than 23000, and 23000 is the result after missing hits and buffs are calculated.

I mean that people trying to compare a sheet to a parse probably doesn't understand that. The sheets require more analysis than just a few parse results and are easily misinterpreted. But parses are too since there are too many variables not accounted for in those, and as you can see, even a fight with the same variables and time frame can results in a ~25% difference.

Heres my problem I am dealing with though.

When using my Turtle setup, I end up dying trying to solo VD battlefields (specifically AAGK)

Why? Apururu and friends blow all their MP cure bombing me for no reason due to my wildly fluctuating HP when I WS and use JAs!

Swapping to my Hybrid setup makes this less of a problem, but Apururu still often pops off all her MP way too damn fast curing me when I dont need it.

Im tempted to swap purely to another red mage healer perhaps who heals me at 50% instead of 75%, with how annoying it is!

Just stop please. You have a bad habit of arguing just for the sake of arguing. Nobody said PLD cannot do damage, only that it is not what you should be focusing on.

If I am not dying and holding hate, then yes my DPS is the next thing I do indeed focus on.

The perfect paladin walks the fine line between maximizing damage reduction but still doing maximum damage as well.

The "Your a tank don't worry about your damage" mentality is lazy.

Also, I enjoy soloing on paladin, so yeah Im going to maximize my DPS there as well.

The problem is that spreadsheets show what things should be with very specific buffs and assuming acc is capped AND assuming that your at attack cap.

The reason they ARE inaccurate have to do with those pesky 'NM has special mechanics' which is most mobs in the game tbh sure the sheets are accurate IF the buffs are always the same value not accounting for different gear skill and luck (*rolls) which have wild affects on parse.

Also the degree of the debuffs, just getting para from one mob is not the same as para from another mob.

The same reason it would be near impossible to make a perfect enmity tracker are the same reason that the spread sheets have problems, too many variables to track accurately.

The problem with spreadsheets is the lack of a control.

Have you ever heard of the concept "Stay in your lane"?

Even under perfect circumstances, PLD's damage is laughable compared to actual DD's unless they completely forgo tanking and use Caladbolg, and in those cases, you could have just gone DRK!

No, I'd say the ideal situation would be putting your effort and money into something that will grant you more efficacy for your investment.

Play the game however you want, just don't claim that you're "chasing perfection". You're just doing whatever you damn well please.

You are making justifications on how to use a different weapon than burtgang, which can do damage has great pdt AND enmity saying you need to focus on damage.

It also makes you loose less enmity for getting hit with burtgang, and lets not assume you wont get hit, you have the same evasion as a 90 year old man.

Also the other things that you do while tanking, you mean like calling out buffs debuffs on the mob, maybe actually leading, not following. Sure you can help out with a SC but saying you need a different weapon to maximize your damage is laughable on pld.

Do Not Sub War. It is a waste of time, lazy pld sub war.
Sub blue, use cocoon, have more spells for hate, have AoE hate tools.

Master that. Solo tank albumen on an 18 man melee run then we can talk about having room to build DD sets.

Do you even use spreadsheet? Because what you are saying here is not remotely true.....

Spreadsheet has columes to adjust acc and attack, if you dont want to calculate your dps under capped acc and attack, just dont turn on the buffs and debuffs for those. You can also add jobs with specific stats. Add a mob with 1700 evasion and how you have floored acc without buffs.

You can also give different buff values including different roll numbers in Spreadsheet AND simulate the situations that buffs dropping.

Say if you are in a situations that geo bubble that's up for 30 sec and down for 5 sec, you can use the spreadsheet to calculate your avg dps in those 35 sec by turning on and off the buffs.

THAT is how you use spreadsheet to simulate dps close to real situation. You don't just enter the gears and done. If you ever use it, you will know it can do way more than you described.

Para affects all gears equally, so just because para dps lose can't be calculated in spreadsheet, doesn't mean it's inaccurate when it comes to gear v.s gear or ws v.s ws comparison. The original discussion was savage v.s CDC and para doesn't change the result.

Saying spreadsheet lacks control is also not true. Exactly what kind of control do you need when you can freely adjust buff values, debuff values, mob stats, haste levels, and even change the stats of ws, gears, and everything? Pretty much anyone with excel can edit spreadsheets and totally control the results.

That's like saying in ideal situation geo should just do 2 bubbles and not casting anything else so they don't run out of mp. You are suggesting people to do less when they can do more.


Arguing for the sake of arguing? Sure if I get paid for doing that. But no, I don't enjoy arguing, just hate seeing wrong ideas being presented on forums that very often lead to even more wrong idea in community.

When I see things that's incorrect I point out, when I see things that's correct or agreeable I upvote it. It doesn't go anymore complicated than that.

Community doesn't need to read info like "spreadsheet only calculate dps under capped attack" or "doing DPS on paladin is overwhelmingly counterproductive" as if it's a wrong thing to do on pld. Any new player reads it will immediately get the wrong idea of how to play the job at max potential.

If pld isn't dying, they totally should DD, period.

I used para as an example not as the only instance. In the case of WS potency you could just substitute in different attack down moves. You could use acc down values or eva buffs on the mob, and while you can edit the fields, you don't know what they actually are so your information is only accurate on incredibly weak mobs or mobs someone else has nerfed into the floor, and the more buffs /debuffs that are applied, the less you actually know where your set sits in real world situations.

Saying well in my spread sheets all the data is accurate there for Spreadsheets are accurate is a false dichotomy.

The control I mentioned is in the scientific sense, not ability sense. Spreadsheets show what things are under specific situations only, RnG plays a roll, sure, but not having accurate data on what things are to begin with is an issue. And gearing solely on the basis of that 'data' is foolish.

Everything you said here doesn't have much to do with the original discussion about how you are wrong about spreadsheet displaying CDC avg though.

The point of using a spreadsheet, is to complete dps calculation faster by inserting infos we already know. If spreadsheet doesn't exist, we'd just calculate dps by hands, and that takes forever. Spreadsheet simply make it faster to find the avg of everything.

Whether the info of a mob is correct or not is completely different discussion and not even relevant. Because once you have the correct info, you just need to insert it, instead of having to manually calculate all the DA TA QA STP etc just to find out if 3 stp wins or 1 DA. And THAT is the point of using a tool.

It's like a calculator. Obviously a calculator doesn't tell you how you should spend your money for best return per investment. But it speed up the process of calculating once you know the info. If you ended up making a bad investment, it's not calculator's fault.

Many people think spreadsheet should be a holy bible of everything, lol no. That's a sim, not spreadsheet.

I, on the otherhand, would say it's not a good idea to encourage said "New players" to gear their PLD as a DD. Again, is it possible? Sure. Recommended? No.

The issue is you treat "new players" as though they were the same as veteran players when it comes to nuance and general game sense, and game knowledge. As though they would know the intricacies of when and where to use that potential to their benefit. Instead they see a more simplistic picture, such as "DD PLD GOOD". Sure, not everyone is like this, but there are more that are this way than those that are not this way, and if you look at what you do to the community as a WHOLE with such statements, it causes more harm than good.

I don't recommend doing DD on RDM, even though it's totally viable, and even actually pretty good in many cases. But it requires gear, and experience to make it worth it, and in many cases, it makes more sense to focus on primary roles such as buffs, and debuffs. I wouldn't give a new RDM the idea of going for a "Max damage build" or telling them that was the smartest thing to do, simply because it will not be accessible to them for a significant time.

Back to PLD; it can do some damage, yes. (and let's not forget that this difference is naught but a pittance in group content) But what you gain in DPS, you tend to sacrifice in some form of safety, unless you are just doing TP in tanking gear. Of course you will naturally be doing this, but this whole conversation was started by someone seriously considering making Almace or Excalibur instead of Burtgang, solely on the premise that it does more damage. It's tough to think of a more clear-cut case of this exact point. In order to gain that damage, you give up PDT II, and a large amount of enmity. Even if you did get a significant damage bump from using a different weapon, you would lose out on hate simply because Burt gives you +23% enmity for those weaponskills; whereas Almace and Exalibur (and even sequence for that matter) do not.

People pretend as though 23 enmity and 18 PDT2 makes no difference in literally anything in the game are just hand-waving, or they just want an excuse to not do assaults/ichor/tokens. This becomes especially transparent when they advocate strongly for Excalibur.

To add my own little one-liner quip like you so seem to like:

"If the PLD isn't keeping hate, they shouldn't even be in the party, period."

The guy who asked about burtang and wanted to min max on PLD doesn't need advice like "please don't focus on DD". We're not giving suggestions to a new player here. But new players that read this may think "oh, so not doing dps is what I should aim for". And that's counter productive.

ALL of the career pld I've ever pt with has huge amount of DPS sets and variations. Some people even have 7+ PLD ambuscade back and more than half of them are for different WSs. So it's certainly not a weird thing to do.

AL of the career PLD I've ever pt with DPS in pt at some point, some of them parse fairly equal or close to a top end REMA DD BRD, roughly 16% ish in a pretty fast VD fight, almost 1/3 of another 2h DD.

still weaker than RUN obviously, but it's not something like 3% or 5%.

None of them ever lose hate when they tank unless DD caps hate. None of them die when they tank too, so PLD isn't sacrificing anything to DPS.

So why shouldn't PLD DD? It makes no sense.

The issue that he has, and that even I have with spreadsheets, is by trusting it, you are subjecting yourself to the imperfections and that individual's ability to run a scientific experiment. You essentially are just taking their word for it when things are said and done. It's different when you are talking about your OWN spreadsheets, because of course, you will have confidence in them because you wouldn't bother testing something if you thought it wasn't going to prove anything, and we all have bias toward our own opinions and mistakes.

The simulator is a much better representation of what the spreadsheets are designed to do, and it's better in a lot of ways. The only downside to the simulators, is while they are far more accurate and true-to-life in terms of max damage potential, they don't account as well for how much buffs you will need to maintain accuracy or attack cap; situations for which spreadsheets are (usually) setting controls for before they even begin.

So, the simulators can't account for accuracy, and debuffs (or even the intricacies of how each individual buff might affect damage overall and if a piece is BiS or not (Not that they can't do that, it's just a hell of a lot more work). Whereas spreadsheets can, but often don't account for these factors, but at the end of the day, you have to trust the person giving you the spreadsheet on their word, because it's not necessarily based on unbiased evidence.

Math on the other hand tends to get you better results. It makes perfect sense, as math is the bedrock behind how simulators work. The difference is, it's slower to calculate these things by hand, but in each specific circumstance you CAN control for things like buffs, debuffs, and accuracy/attack caps.

That's a strawman, though I shouldn't be surprised as you do this literally every time you argue with me. I never said that people should INTEND TO NOT do damage. That's ridiculous, and you KNEW nobody was saying that before you said it, so why did you?

You and your damn smear tactics, Jesus Christ.

Also if your single wielding BRD or PLD get 1/3 of the damage of your DD's or higher, replace your DD's.

The only way it's possible to do that when the PLD is TPing in their DT set is if your DD's are actually trash.

This makes no sense at all. Spreadsheet IS based on math. It's created using the formula that we found on bg wiki, and make it into a format that we can just insert the numbers.

Don't believe me? try to calculate things like leaden damage by hands, then use spreadsheet to calculate them again. The final value is nearly identical.

There are times that glitches do exist, but they are pretty noticable anyways. And not tough to avoid.



This also makes no sense....sim is created by another person just like spreadsheet, using formulas from bg wiki. It can also contain glitches and errors. So if you don't trust spreadsheet because reasons, then using the same standard you shouldn't trust sim equally.

Fundamentally, spreadsheet and sim are both tools created using formulas that we know, the difference is how they approach things. None of them are better than another, just different method for the users to understand FFXI DPS mechanics and find their solutions.

Spreadsheet is like calculator. You enter the number, then it give you a number. For everything else, you need to setup the scenerio by yourself. If you understand FFXI mechanics, then you can get fairly accurate result, because you can enter the correct scenerios and data that's fairly accurate to begin with.

Sim is like well made investment plans. It setup the scenerio for the users. And you get the results for that specific scenerio.

I often find that community expect spreadsheet to be an investment plan that tells them exactly what to do to get the best investment, when in fact it's just a calculator. But for those who wants to explore different possibility of investment plans, calculator is still a great tool.

For example, years ago when I was playing spreadsheet about optimal leaden melee build, spreadsheet says "blurred +1 x2 and fomalhaut is best".

Do I just use that setup for melee leaden in game because spreadsheet say so? No. Because the result that I read from there, is "if you only engage on one thing and never disengage, blurred +1 x2 and fomalhaut is best", not "blurred +1 x2 and fomalhaut is best".

At that time I primarily do omen and often engage/disengage on fodders, and I and ended up using blurred +1 x2 and DP on fodders. I come up with such build based on the info of spreadsheet, but modified it slightly. So I get the benefit of faster TP to 1000 with blurred x2, but keep DP over fomalhaut so I can one shot fodders. The result is better than something like fettering/blurred(slower TP to 1000 and one shot fodders regardless) or using fomalhaut over DP(fomalhaut TP faster than DP with stp on it, but unable to one shot fodder at 1000).

Now if COR sim ever exist, it'll probably just said "the best build for a fodder with 30000 HP is blurred x2 and DP". And that's what most people expect spreadsheet to do, and bash it for not being able to do that. It's not supposed to, spreadsheet is a calculator to base decisions on, not a investment plan to tell you the best decision.

You see, I often find people expect spreadsheet to give you that kind of info like sim, tell you exactly what to wear, what to use under specific scenerios. But in fact, the entire point of using a spreadsheet is to draw conclusion of what to use based on the numbers from spreadsheet.

And fundamentally, they all built on the knowledge and models that we know about how FFXI works. They just have different approach about the final result, and it's up to the user to interpret them and use that info.

Resort to Personal attack yeah?

If the DDs are trash, we wouldn't clear VD in 3 min when majority of good pt clear in 4-5 and some even need 10 min, otherwise any pt took more than 3 min to get VD wins are trash beyond trash.

How fast is your VD run this month before you make cheap argument like "your DDs are trash"? I would love to see some kind of super saiyan DD from your party that beats VD in less than 2 min without MS and trashes 99% of VD pt in community.

Arguments like this is just a cheap tactic to win the internet argument, anyways.

So no. Maybe you just never pt with PLD and BRD that goes all out and play really offensively. 33% of a real DD is damn reasonable for a top end DD BRD, assuming the DD didn't MS. Unless majority of community are beating VD sub 2 min our DDs aren't "trash", at very minimum it's avg like most other DDs you see in game.

Nobody says PLD TP in DT set btw, I said they play offensively.


It sure sound like it because the OP was asking info on how to DPS in the middle of dps discussion, then you popped and say something completely irrelevant and discouraging to PLD DPSing.

as the only person with working simulations, i can tell you that you don’t understand how they work if that’s what you think

Can you elaborate that?

i was talking to the other guy

Well I already wrote an essay to another guy about how sim and spreadsheet works. And I hope the calculator v.s investment plan comparsion is close enough to describe the difference between them....

Could you elaborate on that, or were you talking to the other other guy?

Don't you run from this. You are the one that claimed your PLD could do 1/3 of the DPS of your 2 handed DD's. Show me a PLD doing sword and board breaking 3.5k DPS. I'm not even mad anymore, I'm genuinely interested.

Also, in any content where PLD does not need to even use DT sets, and can focus entirely on DPS, it's not threatening enough to warrant bringing PLD in the first place. PLD's whole shtick is being able to mitigate damage. If the content is easy enough that you do not need to do that, you shouldn't be using PLD. PLD on this months VD for instance was completely unnecessary, I was getting 4 minute kills in VD this month while *** TRIBOXING. This month was easy, stop beating your chest.

EDIT: *** every time I edit this comment I find something even dumber in what you said. "Nobdy said PLD TP's in DT sets".

Really, are you sure NOBODY said that?

Afania can you go even one page on ANY forum with out using the words or meaning of, so what your saying is, and then straw man someone?

FFS IF SOMEONE SAID SOMETHING, THEN THAT IS WHAT THEY SAID

Use the quote if you must but FFS quit putting words in other peoples mouth.

1) Where did you get the numbers that PLD needs to break 3.5k DPS to do 1/3 of real DD's dmg?

3500 x3= 10500.

So you are implying that a super saiyan 2h DD from another planet, not using MS nor fighting mobs with damage taken + mechanics, breaks 10500 DPS on scoreboard?

Now I'm the one who genuinely intersted. Post a video of a DD breaks 10500 DPS in on scoreboard in endgame, I'll shut up. Because asides from WAR with MS or dmg taken + mechnics, I've never seen that kind of number on scoreboard, even if they do happen it's just for very short time. nor I get that kind of DPS on spreadsheet/sim. 7-8k is most I get from spreadsheet/sim with maxed geared 2h. In real situations on scoreboard DDs don't even reach that number.

So why would PLD needs to break 3.5k on scoreboard to do 1/3 of another DD?

Honestly, I feel you are just trolling at this point. This just doesn't make any sense.

2) We have PLD that wants to play PLD, so they are there.

3) If you're not killing faster than everyone else, don't use "your DDs are trash" as a cheap tactic to win an internet argument.

You say you can't account for things such as accuracy and debuffs, when that's the point of either tool. the biggest difference is that a spread sheet assumes infinite health and attempts to find a perfect mean where a simulation doesn't and outputs real results based on the conditions given, which can vary greatly on any given run, just like in-game. this is an example run of a thousand 3-minute long fights using my SAM one and as you can see, there is a large range and ideally you'd focus on reducing your interquartile range while increasing your average.

I didn't though, I simply explained how spreadsheet works when people aren't getting the ideas right.