~First And Final Line Of Defense V2.0~

is getting to ML50 worth it? excuse my ignorance. all this stuff is extremely new to me.

Not at all. ML 20 or 30 isn't too bad to farm, but 40 and 50 are just lessons in pain, and the "value" of each ML is essentially the exact same as any other, with the exception of SJ levels giving you a new spell or ability.

Each ML gives: 1 to all base stats, 1 to combat and magic skills, 7 HP, and 2 MP.

If you count all 50 ML this is a decent sum of stats, but I think the last 10 or 20 are absolutely not worth the time investment, since ML49-50 is the same amount of EP as getting ML0-33, for example.

Sure, but unfortunately some sub job benefits only come at ML 45+.

Eg auto-refresh with /blu needs BLU58 as subjob, or ML 45.

This being a PLD thread,I'm just going to mention that /BLU auto-refresh would do nothing for PLD as PLD already has native Auto-refresh I, and traits don't stack.

Good lord. that's a lot of grind. with no dopamine boosts in-between.
Kind of takes you back to the old days when getting a lvl after 71/72+ took you at least a couple of days. but to get that utsusemi Ni some crazy *** went from 69-74 in a day.

Yup, and in keeping with this tradition and talking about PLD as well (since it's a PLD thread): if you want to get ML45 for Foil, then here's another couple comparisons for you:
If you're ML44, trying to hit ML45, that's the same EP as getting from 0-26, give or take.
If you're ML30 think "Hey, I'm already 2/3 of the way there!" then keep in mind that ML40-45 is about the same as ML0-38.
If you're at ML39 then congrats, you're halfway there.

The only way to get ML50 is automation. Other then that its a complete waste of your time on this planet.

yup. my kungfu is terrible but got enough from an old friend to get these in over the past few days. I think they will be done in another 12 days lol

Most of you been botting for years anyways.

Hmmm. Duban... How should I put it. I wish I were happier. But this feels.. very low effort from SE. Maybe I'm just too jaded.. I dunno. I'm gonna rant a bit, then I'll try to be more positive in the latter part.

Final stats:
DEF:155 VIT+35 MND+35 Evasion+35 Magic Evasion+35 Shield skill +134 All status ailment resistance +20 Magic damage taken II -25%

The actual item pages aren't made yet, and the update item list doesn't display the shield size, but I assume it will still be size 6.

The theme word here is.... "Half-assed."

Firstly, we did get MDT II.... but only 25% on final. So not enough to hit the hard cap. 75% vs 87.5%. So Aegis is NOT dethroned, and I'm still going to have to use the damn thing. Irritating. They could have at least done like 40% so you could hit cap, and put Aegis to rest.

Magic evasion +35. Which is cool.. but that's less than Priwen. So it's not the best option there either. Still at least its a useful stat. But again.. feels half-assed.

They had no issues kicking Ochain where it hurt, why the reluctance to do the same to Aegis and Priwen(and Priwen would still be a phalanx swap in anyway.)

Regular evasion +35? Why even? I actively dislike this. Waste of a stat. I guess people who like to.. evasion tank on PLD...? will be happy? I'd have been happier if it just wasn't even on there.

All status resist... I'd have rather had.. almost anything else.. except evasion+... <,<; It's not useless, but it's not very good either. Another vaguely tank'ish stat tossed in the pile.

MND+35. Ooookay? Not useless. Again vaguely tank'ish. Should have some impact on cure power, chivalry potency, Savage blade(maybe the new WS has a MND mod? Caliburnus does have MND+ as well.) And I suppose dMND for whm enfeebles/nukes.

Still feeling that lack of focus here. A failure to either make stats decisive individually, or to make them really synergize...

So we get 155 DEF. Beats out entirely Srivatsa there, so this is the new protect piece. Also has +35 VIT. Which means a whole lot more DEF total that Srivatsa. 35 VIT is 52.5 DEF + the extra 5 over Srivatsa for a 57.5 def lead. This is 67.5 def gain over stage 2 Duban.

No DT, HP or MP though. So if one was using Srivatsa to cover DT deficit in the kiting/pulling set then that could be an issue. No enmity either.

Also, I would not expect the DEF increase to affect the block dmg reduction. Size 5 and 6 seem to have static per size values and don't benefit from the DEF value of the shield. That said, it will be tested.

Oh, and we got +16 more shield skill. I guess... makes it easier to cap block rate on things without reprisal? I'd have gone nuts over more skill+ in any significant value on Aegis, or Ochain.. Duban.. didn't really need it. I'll take it though.

Moving along from the various half-assery... And attempting to be positive...

While I feel like SE has wasted the potential of this update... We've ended up with a pseudo Ochain/Aegis hybrid that didn't quite make it to Aegis status...

But there is value in having good blockrate and physical defenses and having moderate magic defense at the same time. This should raise the bar for where Aegis is 'required' and let PLD deal with mixed physical/magical damage better at the same time. And a nod to that status effect side of things where we also have extra meva and status resist at the same time.

I'm going to die so many times figuring out where Duban is enough and where you still need Aegis... <,<; But perhaps Duban will be sufficient in enough cases that I'll only have to use Aegis occasionally. /sigh SE, why couldn't you have just made it 37.5~ MDT II..? Well, the positivity attempt did not last long. Can't help it.

I really wish SE could have done something more interesting here. Put the kinda effort into these that they did in the bonanza weapons. Not all of those worked out, but they at least tried new things.

Now to wait to find out how hard they're gonna make me work for this thing that I can't help but be somewhat disappointed in... Well, I've got my rant out.

Well... the things you said for Duban also apply for Loughnashade.
I guess it's a result of:

1) Them not being as proficient as some of us players in how the FFXI mechanics work
2) Them trying to make so these new weapons would've been cool, but not entirely "ultimate" and better than everything else.

Given point 2), I'd say Duban and Loughnashade are already way better than they should have been.

They kinda raised the bar on themselves when they mercilessly crushed Ochain. Showing no regard for a once ultimate. I guess it does still have one niche though(MP Vert.) But honestly, if you're gonna dethrone other shields like that, just finish it and make the one shield to rule them all.

I don't think I'd have expected nearly so much if they'd been showing consideration for Ochain's previous niche as highest block rate shield. And then they impinged on Aegis' realm, but fell short of replacing it to the degree that they did Ochain.

On different note... Would have been nice to get a recovers MP on block thing(finish Ochain off the rest of the way. lol. And the requirement to take dmg to get MP on Ochain is annoying.) Or even a Turms hands type, recovers HP on block effect. Damn that would have been awesome.

And that's exactly why they didn't.
They probably thought it was balanced to make a shield the same size as Ochain because Ochain retains its mp recover, and in their mind probably this enough to stand by their approach of "prime weapons good but not completely better than previous ones"

It's the same for Gjallarhorn/Daurabla.
Sure Loughnashade has +2 songs and +4potency, but it doesn't have skill so Ghorn and Daubla aren't completely replaced in 100% of situations.

Well, Aegis still has shield bash+! lol. Now make with the 40% MDT II on Duban. XD

EDIT: Honestly, SE has been shitting on Aegis and Ochain for years, by not ilvl'ing them. And doing so has made using Aegis very annoying. If they don't want to obsolete them, then freaking update them! Like they did everything else!(except instruments.)

My thing is Since I use Duban a lot already, Getting all these extra stats is a huge Bonus. If it's like Relic where the later upgrades require a lot more than the first couple upgrades. Then getting the MDT -15% stage should hopefully be kind of quick maybe about a month or less hopefully. I'll happily do that then start working on one of the weapons. Hopefully by then we will know more about the potential of the WS's power and help me decide on which weapon I want to dedicate on. Leaning towards Scythe already lol.

But as you said there will be fights where Aegis will still be better.

That's true. It's undeniably a major improvement. I just, as usual, let my hopes get away with me, and dreamed big dreams. I'm cranky when I wake up. lol.

I feel you.
Personally I've been lucky because for Instruments it would've been nigh impossible to make "one instrument to rule them all".
Not just because Marsyas exists, but also because Wind and String instrument have different pros and cons which are quite frankly incompatible, unless they were to develop a third type of instrument that has the pros of both lol.

But yeah, for shields it was way more realistical for that to happen so while I wasn't personally expecting that (Duban is actually way better than my expectations) I can understand why you let your imagination go wild
/comfort

I think They have effectively replaced all other shields.

Sure you know pld way better than me. and obviously aegis has greater mdt so there is a sliver of 12.5% mdt that you lack...

but content-wise does it even matter? I find it hard to find a situation where it will matter.

Is that 12.5% the difference for V.30 Ongo? or what NM does enough magical damage that it would make the difference? Also I can't really complain about magic evasion + status resistance. Status ailments have always been a primary weakness of PLD.
I agree there is no point to the physical eva though.

Also, you cannot simply *** the shield individually, it always should be put in context of a gear set. The lack of damage reduction means nothing imo because there is plenty of dt on other gear, such as sakpata and nyame, and empy and souv.

There is just really no issue with that at all.

Yes, I think giving ilvl upgrade to aegis and ochain would have been a better solution.
but this change means everyone will always be using 1 shield.

Everyone will not always be using 1 shield, especially not those who actually care to perfect their job.

Phalanx still requires Priwen.
Srivatsa still has bis enmity (when I don't need TP I swap shield for midcast)
Aegis has 87.5% MDT. That's "only" 12.5%, or you could look at it as taking DOUBLE magic damage (25% instead of 12.5%)
Srivatsa is still bis for back-tanking physical damage where you can't be blocking (or if you're status'd to not be able to block)

Granted, these aren't the most common scenarios, but it's not like you can just carry one shield and be a proper, bis PLD.

It's an excellent shield for most scenarios, and if you are crunched for inventory space or just want a "good enough" PLD then it's fine. But it's not the end-all-be-all killer of all other shields for people who actually want to min-max.

That 'sliver' means that the Duban(75% MDT) PLD will take twice as much magic dmg as the Aegis PLD. Aegis takes 100 dmg, Duban takes 200. 50% MDT will take 4 times as much, so in this example 400.

I'm confident that there have been plenty of times where taking x2 dmg from a magic attack have meant death.

V.30 V25 Ongo is a bad example. He's got all of one attack you can even block. You'd just use Aegis, assuming the PLD was even tanking Ongo and not the adds. Although, we haven't tried V25 Ongo. DO people even bring PLD to that? Multi KI fight? /shrug.Marmokrebs comes to mind. Sundering snip is lethal without Aegis, and still hurts a bit with it. Looking through my logs, I've seen up to a 1598 Sundering. twice that is survivable... barely. But not being perfectly topped off when that hit could easily mean death. Actually.. I have less HP in Gaol.. I think that'd just kill me. Although, you can always just scherzo since Marm doesn't dispel songs.
I don't think that particularly matters either. I don't balance my sets around Srivatsa(or priwen's) DT. I just mentioned it as part of comparing Srivatsa to New Duban. Although, opportunity cost shouldn't be ignored. If the DT on the shield lets you change another piece by dropping DT and you can add some other benefit then that's useful.

Anyway, like I said earlier, I fully expect to die multiple times figuring where I still need Aegis, and and where Duban will do. I'll definitely be defaulting to Duban myself. But Aegis is still the best at what it does, and I think it can make enough of a difference to matter in the right situation.

V25...

Hmmmm. I dunno about this one. Final stage Duban has 57.5 def(accounting for def form VIT) over Srivatsa, and the VIT affects mob fSTR and also contributes to crit defense. So unless you need the DT, or the HP or something... I guess there's also the anulls dmg thing, but that's 5% proc.

Personally, I think I'd be pulling in Duban as well. And then I don't have to remember to shield swap when I get to camp. <,<

EDITWow, the R30 and V25 thing really messes with my brain. I didn't even notice.

PLD can't Rayke or Gambit, so Ongo is out I would expect. I can already hold it at v25 pretty effectively with just Aegis.

I think it would be more interesting in cases like Kalunga where his physical and magical attacks need to mitigated, the loss of MDT could be outweighed by the increase in block rate and physical reduction? He has more TP moves that can be blocked.Same for some of the T2s (Gigalorum, Marmorkrebs) and maybe Arebati?

I was thinking of the 5% annuls, which when compared to "a bit of defense and VIT" I think it wins out, but that's just eyeballing and no math was done here so take it with a grain of salt.

Well, depends a lot on how hard you're getting hit. Like in sheol C pulls a fair number of hits are already 0s, and more def/VIT could help push more of them under the phalanx threshold. Where as the Annuls dmg will proc whether or not the hit would have been 0 already. It contributes but I question if it actually does anymore than the def. Hmmmm, how would I even math that out..?

That and I really prefer consistent defenses where possible. that 5% might.. possibly save you from a death.. but it's pretty unlikely that it will proc at the particular timing needed to make a difference. Though it will contribute to taking less damage over time as well.

I'll think a bit about how I can compare annul vs def/vit a bit more mathematically. Really just going by gut on this one.

I don't think it needs to be that complicated really. If you're talking about taking single 1500 damage hits it gets noodly, but when you're taking 100 hits for 50 damage each, it's very simple. It's a 5% reduction in damage you take. You will nullify 5 of those 100 hits.

TT ML20 PLD/WAR can now reach 80% FC with the new ring while maintaining 3K HP. Other races can probably fit some quick cast pieces in.

I would prefer to use Sapience Orb instead of Egoist's Tathlum and keep my Tuisto/Odnowa.

Still gives the same FC result. You get more HP, which depending on what level you try to maintain is not valuable at all, and considerably less MP, which some people show concern for. This is just the set that gets printed based on lexicographical order based on item IDs.