~First And Final Line Of Defense V2.0~

Feet are a shield skill piece for Shield Block build.

Random Question:

Does the shield def bonus +5 on +3 emp hands run into the 8 tiers of a trait issue like the fencer on war legs?

PLD natively gets shield def bonus 4, +5 on hands would put you at +9 but is this actually +8 due to there only being 8 tiers per trait?

While I can't say for certain, as I haven't tested for that specifically, I really doubt it caps that way.

The Fencer situation is actually pretty rare if you think about it. Store TP is a trait as well, but you don't see it capping for SAMs just cause they have a high tier trait. I'm struggling to think of anything else that behaves this way. Sure, plenty of things have caps, but capping based on the trait tier?

And honestly... the way Shield Defense Bonus works is so terrible that I'd never use a piece of gear just for SDB+. So if I was getting any SBD+ it'd be incidental, and not a determining factor in my gear choices.

That said, it's certainly something that could be tested. And there's also a body piece with SDB+3, so you could stack that with the hands to make it easier to see if it's making a difference. I dunno if I'll ever get around to testing it though. Testing block damage reduction is a lot more annoying than just block rate.

My thought was that if it we were losing the extra tier, we could submit a bug report and get them to throw us a bone on the +3 gloves like the 100 tp bonus they put on legs. Maybe like 10 shield skill or something.

The case for fencer is out of concern that you could get to say fencer+15 eventually and just have around 1k naturally plus some fairly high crit rate. I dont think shield def bonus will have the same concern

I'm not sure what your exact context is regarding capping, but Sam just needs to hit 3 hit with corsair roll and triple attack/zanshin/da average means one round to weaponskill hopefully. It definitely doesn't cap per se because you need a lot, and the base sam storetp trait allows you to shift some storetp on equips to plus damage.

It does cap with the realization that equips give a set amount of storetp in a normal tp/ws set, and you only need x amount to hit your x hit, so it kinda caps due to equipment limitations because the next tier is impossible to get.

You would never WS at 1000TP on SAM though so "a 3 hit" means approximately nothing. Rigid Store TP tiers haven't been a thing for a very long time and having extra isn't a bad thing

Besides that it has nothing to do with the context of Martel's post. There is no hard cap on Store TP

I think a 3 hit means something. I try to ws as fast as possible. Faster ws is better for sure.

Not attacking anyone, just conversing.

Also, i think the topic was fencer for paladin. I have a paladin, and probably wouldn't ever /war.

I guess you're saying that store tp is better than anything else on tp equips? Or, you sacrifice some store tp for TA or something which means there's a cap for which you want to use.

You're absolutely wrong, faster weaponskills are not better when you account for animation lock and the fact that weaponskills like Fudo and Savage Blade scale well beyond 1000TP. The only time you'd want to WS faster would be for something like Knights of the Round where extra TP does nothing.

What if you are weaponskilling slower than the animation lock.

Look its all good. Im not trying to Einstein here. Theres best tp sets for sam out there im sure, like Bippin's stuff.

If you want to say theres no cap for store tp go for it, use every equipment storetp cause you think that is best, its your game.

There literally isn't. Whether the optimal setup for store tp is a breakpoint or not, you can't cap store tp. That's the entire point.

I made my own point. Sorry you got stuck on the previous. Its called a segue.

There is no cap for Store TP.

No one is saying because there is no cap that is the only thing you should gear for…

Your "own point" is completely irrelevant. You decided to make an interjection on how Store TP caps because you say it does. In reality, martel was completely correct in saying that it doesn't cap in the context of job traits having hard caps based on the number of natural tiers available.

Sorry you missed the plot. It's called reading comprehension.

Im not saying there is a cap for storetp, except at some point it has diminishing returns or whatever, jeez guys, lighten up.


100% agree and was just talking about that.

Just to be clear, I never refuted how storetp caps mathematically just to keep the record straight. I wasn't interjecting, just talking. I wouldn't ever try to impose on someone else just because I say it should be like that. You've got the wrong guy. Its a game.

So, I actually went and tested the Shield Defense Bonus thing. What am I doing with my life?

Since I'm.. honestly not sure how much def/vit it takes to change the damage you take by 1, and this test is comparing extremely small damage differences, I ended up just figuring out some sets with identical def/vit where one set had SDB+7, and the other didn't.

ML 34 PLD/BLU.
VIT 144+234
DEF 1835(2039 with Brygid aura)
Overcapped PDT, 50%~.

Mobs: 137 Apex Bats. Ra'Kaznar Inner Court.

Sets:The control test came out to 34 dmg on blocked hits.

I actually ended up doing the SDB+7 test twice. The first of the two got a 29 avg block, but then I realized that the Parse addon doesn't sort defensive crit data at all. The Parse export literally just has the number of blocks, and the total damage.

This wouldn't have mattered normally, but the SDB set has a piece that reduces enemy crit rate by 5%, and less crits means lower avg damage compared to the control.

So I repeated the test without the enemy crit- ammo. Also changed my ambu cape to a block+ one as this set was massively over PDT capped(so that's why the samples have a block% difference.)

Now, about understanding the results. First you need to know that SDB applies before PDT. So when looking at the final result, the impact of SDB is reduced by your PDT value. For example, the Tier 4 trait is -8 dmg on block. But if you have 50% PDT, then the visible result is going to be -4 dmg.

This is why I didn't use burtgang for this test as having to apply 68% PDT to the SDB value would have just made it even harder to see the difference. But going 0% PDT wasn't possible as both of the SDB pieces have DT on them.

So, with the above in mind... We can ignore the base trait value for this test as it is included in the control value of 34. We added +7 SDB, and after 50% PDT we'd expect to see the damage drop by 3.5. I kinda wish I'd had the +3 hands, cause 4 would have been a much cleaner number there.

Anyway what we actually got on the final test was 30 dmg vs the original 34, so we get -4 dmg from SDB+7. The 4 vs 3.5 is most likely the result of the game rounding things down. it's not gonna show us and decimal values on damage.

But in any case, we seem to be getting the full value of the SDB+ gear. If it was capping at tier 8 trait value like fencer, then we'd expect to be seeing 1.5(3 before PDT) higher dmg on the SDB sample. So that doesn't appear to be the case.

TLDR: Shield Defense Bonus doesn't appear to cap based on trait tier.

EDIT:... I'm already thinking of ways to retest with 0% PDT for more definitive results. lol. There's enough PDT+ to do it, but balancing the DEF/VIT values at the same time might be hard... I guess we'll see how little I value my time, and if it happens.

So uh, hate to complicate it more but the bgwiki says that the SDB+5 from emp hands +3 reduces shield block damage by 10. This is part of why I thought it might cap as its saying that it increases the trait tier by 5 rather than just a flat 5 damage.

If this is indeed the case, then your 7 SDB should be reducing damage by 7 with 50 pdt (14 without any pdt). If its just reducing it by 4, that would suggest that you are only getting 4 extra tiers and the the trait IS capping at 8.

The other possibility is that wiki is incorrect and the hands actually give the flat -5 dmg on blocks with 0 pdt (2.5 with 50 pdt).

Anyone have any insight into whether this is a wiki error?

It's in the spoiler tag, he use Chozoron Coselette which is Shield Defense Bonus+3 and Chevalier's Gauntlets+2 which is SDB+4, coming out to Tier+7.

I can't find any sources or references for the statements on the Chev hands pages.

And I've never seen anything anywhere, ever, that suggests that SDB+1 = -2 dmg. Again, this *isn't* fencer, and most traits don't have different values from gear than the listed amount. Fencer is a *** weirdo, and I'm beginning to resent it.

Magic Defense bonus gets 10 from the T1 trait, but do we assume each MDB+1 = 10 on gear? Nope.
Magic attack bonus, Trait 1 is +20 MAB. But +1 MAB on gear.. is +1 MAB.
I could go on and on, killer effects, Subtle blow, Fast cast, resist traits, etc.

At least we had a reason to think Inquartata gear was 1:2.. SE told us it was. but they were wrong. And later corrected it. <,<;;

Anyway, looks like those were all Funkworkz's edits, so I'm gonna ask him for the source for the info. And I guess look at doing my 0% PDT test... If I test just the +2 hands, then That should exclude the possibility of a Tier based cap Since I'd be right at 8. Base Trait 4 and +4 on hands. If the hands are still -4 dmg, then that would verify the value of SDB+4.

EDIT: Err.. wait... IF SDB gear was 1:2, and I used +4, then getting -4 dmg would be that same as if it was capping at Tier 8. Ugh. So I should probably test +3 at 0% PDT, and if that nets -3 dmg then it verifies the gear value. Which should prove that the previous test showed no cap. Could maybe test +7 again as well, but adding the hands makes it so much harder to balance the Def/VIT...

So, here we go again.

The first issue with testing Shield Defense Bonus gear at 0% PDT is that both the Chevalier's hands and Chozoron Coselette have DT on them. There is sufficient PDT+ to counter them, but... Just cause the description numbers say I'm +/-0 now.. doesn't mean I am. So I went to test.

With Chozoron Coselette(-8% DT) and Minerva's ring(+8%PDT), I was taking 1003 dmg from 1k needles.

So clearly the x/256 values aren't matching here, but.. this is small enough that at low base damage values it will probably not even amount to +1 dmg.

Tested again with Coselette + Minerva's, and Chev hands+2(-10% DT plus Nicander's neck(+10% PDT.)

Again, a bit off. Slightly more with both in use. 1,007 dmg. I still I think that with a base dmg of less than 100 or so that will, again, probably not make a visible difference. I hope. Cause I tried a few other +/- combos but nothing I had the gear for was a perfect match.

Test mobs: Snowpelt Rabbit(112) Kamihr Drifts
With the rather massive loss in defenses from having no PDT, and just much lower defense from having to avoid PDT, I needed new mobs. I also wanted relatively low base damage to mitigate the imperfection in the DT +/-0.

Stats.
PLD/DNC. ML 34
DEF: 1383
VIT: 144+132
PDT 0%(listed value)
Control test is actually 0% PDT.
SDB+3 test is something like +0.003%, and +7 test is +0.007%.

Sets:Making 3 sets with identical DEF/VIT, and enemy crit- while swapping in/out the SDB pieces was a pain in the ***.

I got a lot more mobs this time, so I'm doing larger sample sizes since the data gathering is pretty fast once you've got all the mobs the same level.

Control sample. Avg dmg 21. 3k~ sample size.

It didn't occur to me until a good way through the first sample that I could also gather good data with Kparser. I had 100% block rate, Kparser's inability to parse blocks wasn't an issue. So that's why the below Kparser sample is smaller than the Parse addon sample. Kparser gathers a lot of additional info of interest like the high/low and separates crits from normal melee.

So the Kparser sample agrees on the avg dmg of 21, and we see a low of 8 and a high of 34. Also, super low crit rate. Fortified rig doing good work.

As a side note, I do realize that I'm repeating things anyone can clearly see in the image. but this post is likely to become a reference for years to come, and if the image hosting ever breaks I still want the content to be understandable, even if it means being repetitive.

SDB+3 sample. Avg dmg 19. 4.6k hits.


Hmmm, Kparser has the avg as 18.37. 1 lower than parse addon... I'm inclined to set this aside considering the rest of the info below though.
Kparse version also shows a low of 5, and a high of 31.
AVG: 21 to 19. -3
Low: 8 to 5. -3
High: 34 to 31. -3

This certainly looks like SDB+3 in gear equals -3 damage on block. That said, the difference between this result and possibly being capped at trait tier 8 is 1 point. And Kparse had the avg at 18 rather than 19... So I'm going to do a test with SDB+7, and if that increases the reduction by the expected 4 over the +3 sample then it should fairly definitively show that SDB:DMG is 1:1 before PDT, and that there's not a cap at tier 8 trait level.

SDB+7 sample. AVG dmg 15(14.43 in Kparser)


Kparser is showing a slightly lower avg again.
Low of 1. High of 27.
So going from the +3 sample to the +4 that's:
AVG: 19 to 15. -4 (-5 by kparser)
Low: 5 to 1. -4
High: 31 to 27. -4

I think the Highs and lows are more telling than the averages. I certainly got large enough samples to reasonably expect to see the full damage range. And that range moved down along with the SDB+ value.

And the fact that it changed by more than 1 shows that there's not a cap at Trait tier 8. So we aren't capping, and we're getting -1 dmg per SDB+.

TLDR: Shield Defense bonus is 1:1 SDB+:dmg-. It also does not have a cap that I've been able to reach.

Any other issues before I dispose of my pull? I can survive AFK now that I've got my actual tanking gear on again, so I'll hold this for a while in case anything else comes up.

To be fair there are job trait enhancements that differ from the raw value other than Fencer, so it's not alone. Cardinal Chant +3 is +75% potency, for example.

Sure. But it's the exception not the standard, and shouldn't be assumed. If it is tested to be so that's one thing.

Oh also, Funkworkz has corrected the various Chevalier's gauntlets wiki pages on BG wiki.

For the 1000 needles thing, it looks like you're at 257/256 DT in the first case, and 258/256 in the second so yea the +dt pieces each have an extra 1/256th.

Other than that looks very definitive, thanks for the great work. I also see wiki has already been edited so all is right with the world.

Perhaps this should have been obvious, but it never occurred to me to check on it until now...

Apparently, if you use an AoE, and it hits party members who are not on the mob's hatelist, even if the actor is on the hatelist... then you are not awarded any CE/VE for that additional target.


In the image above Martel was on the mob's hatelist, and Ard was not. The damage from this Atonement shows that I was only credited for one target being hit with Rampart.


This one shows me getting no CE/VE credit for curing Ard while he was not on the hatelist. So the target of the action must be on the hatelist for it to generate enmity, even if the actor is already on the hatelist.

TLDR: When using AoE enmity actions, make sure everyone being hit by the AoE is already on the mob's hatelist if you want full credit. Ditto for single target actions on other players.

How does this apply to events where enmity is shared, like ambuscade for example? Might be self-explanatory but figure it's worth clarifying. Would this require members to take action on the target first for fights like Ody or in Dynamis, or is enmity shared there too?

In Vagary and Ambuscade, it's definitely not necessarily for other members to tag anything in order to get credit. In Sheol C it's the opposite. Sheol Gaol and Dynamis are unclear at the moment; I'm not sure whether party hate and automatic CE are the same thing. Testing probably necessary.

Confirmed that party members do not start with enmity in Sheol: Gaol, so enmity will not be awarded for AoE actions on them before they tag.

I havent done any empy+3 for PLD but looking at the set, looks like some nice massive macc. Anyone throw it in a Frightful Roar build and see what kind of success they have in Odyssey Seg farm look like it has 30~50 macc on Sakpata depending on Rank?

I was seeing about 50-60%% land rate on Floor 1 and trending down to not much luck on Floor 4 with Sakpata.