All For One, And More For Me: A Guide To Red Mage |
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All for One, and More for Me: A Guide to Red Mage
Boshi said: » cause apex mobs are NMs. LTR Asura.Saevel said: » As for your NM, so far not a single Escha NM has demonstrated that resistance. We chain nuke the T3 whale with Light nukes and don't see a reduction until the third nuke, and then it's small. This is so easy that anyone can go see it in action. Asura.Saevel said: » Boshi said: » cause apex mobs are NMs. LTR Asura.Saevel said: » As for your NM, so far not a single Escha NM has demonstrated that resistance. We chain nuke the T3 whale with Light nukes and don't see a reduction until the third nuke, and then it's small. This is so easy that anyone can go see it in action. I'll clarify one thing : I never claimed that every NMs in the game receive a -60% magic damage reduction for all the elements after the first nuke/MB. However I maintain that the reduction is very noticeable on certain NMs and not necessary after a ton of nukes/MBs.
Asura.Saevel said: » I'm positive your correct that Iron beak gets a resistance to Summoners pets who attempt to chain Blood Pacts on him. Did some T1s yesterday as SCH+BLM, this happens pretty consistently(no baseline for the "second" nuke since it's on SCH and always T5, but the difference between Aja/T6 depending on order was pretty consistent and far from negligible).
This effect was notable against the T1 Dullahan in Reisenjima. Window looked like it was about 5 seconds long before we could nuke for full damage again.
First run the other BLM and I chainnuked as quickly as we could and both of us had to use some method of MP recovery (convert, lucid ether iii, etc.). After we noticed, we started alternating nukes. With the strategy change we never dropped much below full MP and killed approximately equally quickly. Very noticeable. I'm pretty sure sky gods and T3 NMs in Ru'Aun also all have this effect. Naga Raja/Azi Dahaka definitely have this effect (28k Death on pull, 11k Death other times). In fact, afaik I've never fought a NM on BLM that does not have it. I've never seen it nor has any of the SCH / BLM's we run with seen it on the NM's we've SC Burned and we usually do volleys with everyone doing double MB. Of course we're doing it as MB's which may have a different effect then a BLM/SCH/RDM chaining nuking. Just did some escha the other day doing MB's with another BLM and there was no 60% cut on our four nukes. That kind of reduction would be so noticeable as to be easily eyeballed and wouldn't require a controlled test.
Also is it all the time, a 60% reduction, or only some of the time, or very rarely? I know there isn't a 60% damage cut on consecutive BLU nukes of the same element though you do get the regular stacking cut after second. Carbuncle.Papesse said: » I'll clarify one thing : I never claimed that every NMs in the game receive a -60% magic damage reduction for all the elements after the first nuke/MB. However I maintain that the reduction is very noticeable on certain NMs and not necessary after a ton of nukes/MBs. The person I originally replied to did and you then proceeded to agree with him and join in. I have no problem believing some NM's might have damage mechanics designed to prevent chainspell nuking or multiple BLM's free nuking in quick succession. I've done a lot of events where I spammed either light (Blinding Fulgor, Diffusion Ray, Rail Cannon, Retinal Glare) or dark (Tenebral, Dark Orb, Evry Grudge) BLU nukes on a target with another BLU and you can see the elemental buildup at play and it's not 60% after the first nor even 30%, you don't see it until the 3rd and then its a consecutive effect which is why we'll switch elements for about 10s and then switch back or just stagger different elements in our mix. I've also MB'd a ***ton on RDM, BLM and GEO in a team with other MBers and we didn't notice a reduction buildup till the third nuke. 1. never said "second nuke". I said testing showed 60% reduction, which numbers of testing which Protey linked to on BG back up. Is it definitive? Not yet, but it's a start.
2. In fact, I even brought up a scenario in my post that mentioned a 2 BLM + SCH setup where you on RDM would be adding nukes. That would be 4 nukers, minimum, not counting a possible SMN. And yes, I generally will assume the RDM's nuke will land first simply due to fast cast traits. This will mean on average 4-6 nukes per skillchain among the BLMs and SCH, more if the RDM kicks in. (fyi this job combination of 2-3 BLMs+SCH along with a RDM and GEO is a staple for our "magey" setups in my shell for T2-3 Reisen and T3 Ru'Ann, Protey knows the players involved and I'm sure will testify they know their ***enough to rely on solid gearing, gearswap being used, and logical play.) 3. The result? We're speaking the same language here. You say "I've also MB'd a ***ton on RDM, BLM and GEO in a team of other MBers and we didn't notice a reduction in buildup till(sic) the third nuke". That's what I'm talking about!!! Your BLMs should be hitting a T6+aja or T6+T5 in one skillchain (sub in a T4 if they're caught offguard). That's 4 right there! Your RDM nuke(s) makes 5 or 6, and we haven't even talked about the SCH or GEO yet!! --Listen, I love RDM. I'm a Murgleis and Laevateinn owner, which I mention to say how much I love those two jobs, not in a condescending "I'm better than you" tone. I love what the job can do, and yes, there's a place for RDM nuking AND bursting. My argument is that we have to be smart about it, analyze what's best for our party/alliance in every unique situation. Sometimes it's bursting, sometimes it's letting others maximize their output by staying out of the way.
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Neither Protey nor yourself made any mention about your setup having that many nukers all trying to do double MB. The damage buildup doesn't really happen until after the third MB, though technically the third will have a small effect. It's not till the fifth that it's particularity bad.
Quote: If you, even in tip-top gear, land a nuke prior to your party's pimped out BLMs, it can reduce their damage on T6 nukes by 60% (30% if you've brought a RUN for Rayke), and even your T5 isn't making up for that lost damage. The linked testing shows two BP's, and only two BP's, against a single NM, and then claims "60% reduction!", which is a completely different mechanic then the one experienced by elemental magic users. The resistance build up is on a per-element basis and can be circumvented by using different elements. The guy who posted the BLM + SCH setup actually confirmed it, though nobody stopped to think that the Aero closing the detonation was the first nuke for damage buildup and not the MB'd VI. Aero (closing SC and first wind nuke) BLM VI (second wind nuke) SCH T5 (third wind nuke) BLM JA (fourth wind nuke) Seeing as his gear was so poor that he only MB'd for 20~24K I would suspect he was hitting a 20~30% reduction followed by a 1/2 resist on the fourth nuke as the NM's magic evasion against wind had gone up. If the SCH had done Blizzed -> Water instead and caused Fragmentation, they would of been been able to do both Aero and Thunder bursts and not had that issue. We melee burn most T1's and T2's but magic setups are frequent on T3's. PLD WHM SCH then some combination of BLMs and GEO's and usually get five MB's off per SC. I can watch the damage mechanics at play and there is a drop after the third nuke though it's not bad until the fifth, if we all use same element, which is sometimes unavoidable. Also the first nukes should be the strongest, the damage reduction doesn't happen until later in the series and thus only effects the weaker nukes so there is no "you taking 60% from the BLM!" like what was claimed. The RDM can MB perfectly fine, just wait two to three seconds after the SC closed to toss out a T5, and only if your running with two BLMs. nice selective quote. Here is the full post.
Quote: I really recommend the sanctity necklace over eddy necklace for rdm on anything worth nuking (macc10/MAB10 vs macc4/MAB11). We need that extra help for free nukes in anything over 119 content in my opinion. Then again, considering the damage penalty for multiple nukers on NMs, if you are bringing either multiple BLMs or SCHs for heavy nuking duties, you could be doing more harm than good by nuking, no matter how good your gear is. It's a hard lesson that we have to appreciate while on RDM- sometimes it's best to let those best equipped for the job do it. If you, even in tip-top gear, land a nuke prior to your party's pimped out BLMs, it can reduce their damage on T6 nukes by 60% (30% if you've brought a RUN for Rayke), and even your T5 isn't making up for that lost damage. Again I state full data is not in, but the data we have seems to point to those numbers. And my personal emphasis was placed on the emboldened sections for this "repost" merely to bring up the challenged comments. edit--and again- gheesh can we just agree that there's a finesse involved in when it's smart for a RDM to MB based on general party setup because of the resist penalty? There is no "catch-all" rule for us, simple as that, and that's what I'm arguing more than anything. Leviathan.Celebrindal said: » nice selective quote. Here is the full post. Quote: I really recommend the sanctity necklace over eddy necklace for rdm on anything worth nuking (macc10/MAB10 vs macc4/MAB11). We need that extra help for free nukes in anything over 119 content in my opinion. Then again, considering the damage penalty for multiple nukers on NMs, if you are bringing either multiple BLMs or SCHs for heavy nuking duties, you could be doing more harm than good by nuking, no matter how good your gear is. It's a hard lesson that we have to appreciate while on RDM- sometimes it's best to let those best equipped for the job do it. If you, even in tip-top gear, land a nuke prior to your party's pimped out BLMs, it can reduce their damage on T6 nukes by 60% (30% if you've brought a RUN for Rayke), and even your T5 isn't making up for that lost damage. Again I state full data is not in, but the data we have seems to point to those numbers. And my personal emphasis was placed on the emboldened sections for this "repost" merely to bring up the challenged comments. edit--and again- gheesh can we just agree that there's a finesse involved in when it's smart for a RDM to MB based on general party setup because of the resist penalty? There is no "catch-all" rule for us, simple as that, and that's what I'm arguing more than anything. I have zero problem agreeing that everything in FFXI is situational, the nature of the game is such that everything needs to take on a case by case basis. Unless your using BST's then you can just watch youtube and collect gear. This is your claim Quote: If you, even in tip-top gear, land a nuke prior to your party's pimped out BLMs, it can reduce their damage on T6 nukes by 60% (30% if you've brought a RUN for Rayke), and even your T5 isn't making up for that lost damage. That part is false and demonstrably, which is what I've been arguing this entire time and which you guys have been piling on and straw manning like a mofo. The damage reduction isn't anywhere near that, which is what I stated. It's not even felt until the third and then not severely until the fifth. The RDM isn't causing this reduction, it's all the nukes combined together that are causing it, the BLM, GEO and SCH are just as responsible as the RDM. It's a stacking reduction with each incremental nuke adding more instead of an "all at once" reduction. The "testing" was complete ***, which I pointed out. It was doing SMN blood pacts, which are just pet weapon skills, on some delve NM which is about as relevant as a WAR's WS damage to a PLD's shield block rate. They could have gotten more accurate results from a ouija board. Your group then later attempted to gloat and act snide by claiming Quote: Lol, no. Any magic BP used on a NM right after a nuke/MB can get its damage reduced and vice versa. Which completely invalidates any relevancy it could of possibly had since using different element nukes doesn't' cause the resistance to build up as the resistance is done on a per-element basis, with elemental nukes at least. I've done a T6 Blizzard MB followed by a T6 Stone MB with three or four other ice MB's from different players in between and still got full damage on my Stone VI. What was noticed was something very specific to pets, which is why I laughed so hard at those pointing to your "testing" and claiming it as proof of effecting elemental magic on MB. I'm perfectly happy with a good natured disagreement and discussion, I'm not cool with you getting your friends to all pile on in an attempt at bullying and intimidation. After this argument stated I actually went out and screwed around with friends just to be absolutely sure I wasn't missing anything. Are you MBing for >20k or for 10k? Maybe you're just used to always seeing the resistance because you use too many nukers.
Lakshmi.Byrth said: » Are you MBing for >20k or for 10k? Maybe you're just used to always seeing the resistance because you use too many nukers. More like 50~80K on the Blizzard 6 then later 45~70K off the Stone 6. Who the hell does 20K or 10K MBs, that's like ***tier gear and that person doesn't need to be doing that content. The exact numbers depends if the GEO has BoG up or not and if they have an Idris. There is no sudden severe 60% drop in damage. Further evidence is that SCH strategies work, because you do realize that a SCH has to do two nukes prior to the BLM even getting a single MB in. SCH Thunder (impaction open) - Nuke 1 SCH Aero (detonation close) - Nuke 2 BLM Aero VI - Nuke 3 BLM Aeroja - Nuke 4 SCH Aero V - Nuke 5 GEO Aero V - Nuke 6 GEO Aero IV - Nuke 7 A 60% damage reduction on all nukes after the first would mean the closing Aero, and all the other nukes would take a 60% hit and the entire strategy would be useless. If it's elemental specific, which was tested a long *** time ago to be, then all nukes after the closing Aero would take a 60% damage hit and again the strategy would be useless. If the damage cut / resistance lowering was slight on the third and got increasing larger, then you'd see it on the SCH's MB and then really badly on the GEO's but not on the BLMs and the strategy would work. This is what we see all the time. Or take the common Death + Comet MB tactic. SCH Aero (detonation open) - Nuke 1 SCH Noctohelix (compression / gravitation close) - Nuke 2 BLM Manawell Comet - Nuke 3 BLM Death - Nuke 4 The SCH's nuke is a dark based elemental nuke, it's no different then Aero, Fire or Thunder. If there was a sudden 60% damage drop on the second nuke then the resulting Comet or Death would take a huge damage hit and the strategy wouldn't work. It basically works like this, nukes of the same element Nuke 1 - normal Nuke 2 - normal Nuke 3 - 10~20% damage reduction and resistance / magic evasion increase (this part is important) Nuke 4 - another 10~20% stacked reduction and resistance / magic evasion increase Nuke 5 - another 10~20% stacked reduction and resistance / magic evasion increase What usually happens is that the fourth nuke and beyond can start suffering from resists due to the stacked magic evasion. It's compounded with the fact that the damage reduction is already lowering it's value. So a nuke that would of MB'd for 50K, is lowed by 20~40% (Nuke 4) to 30~40K and then miss's its' first resistance check but pass's it's second for a 15~20K MB. The time for a complete reset seems to be about 10s, but it's not all at once and happens gradually. This is very noticeable when chain nuking Light / Dark / Subduction with multiple Blue Mages who are talking on Skype. We end up staggering ourselves to avoid the effect. well, the only person in this thread I've had direct contact with is Protey, just because he's on my server and we both happen to share a passion for melee rdm and the like-and even at that, it's not like we're in the same shell hanging out every day. I know I certainly didn't consider it piling on, but if you took it that way, mea culpa.
I'm going to have to say my experience leans more toward what Saevel saw eyeballing, but I have some samples from hidhaegg that may be helpful if anyone wants to attempt to find a pattern. There is absolutely not a 60% reduction nor seemingly any cumulative reduction, as my 8th burst seems to be about 30% off my first when factoring the difference between BLM and GEO traits(though in some cases it's much closer, penalty certainly seems variable).
Not sure if anyone cares, but it seemed to be a more relevant dataset than those that were previously mentioned. I have many more pages of logs from the same fights, if they are desired.
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I never quit, I just haven't played any extensive amount since the summer. I was on a fair amount last month farming ruaun stuff but haven't gotten into reisen yet. Kinda boring these days.
Asura.Saevel said: » Which completely invalidates any relevancy it could of possibly had since using different element nukes doesn't' cause the resistance to build up as the resistance is done on a per-element basis, with elemental nukes at least. I've done a T6 Blizzard MB followed by a T6 Stone MB with three or four other ice MB's from different players in between and still got full damage on my Stone VI. What was noticed was something very specific to pets, which is why I laughed so hard at those pointing to your "testing" and claiming it as proof of effecting elemental magic on MB. Quick exemple on Revetaur in Escha - Zi'Tah this time : Wind Blade : 53229 > 37260 (-30%) RDM Aero IV : 5975 > 4182 (-30%) Carbuncle.Papesse said: » Asura.Saevel said: » Which completely invalidates any relevancy it could of possibly had since using different element nukes doesn't' cause the resistance to build up as the resistance is done on a per-element basis, with elemental nukes at least. I've done a T6 Blizzard MB followed by a T6 Stone MB with three or four other ice MB's from different players in between and still got full damage on my Stone VI. What was noticed was something very specific to pets, which is why I laughed so hard at those pointing to your "testing" and claiming it as proof of effecting elemental magic on MB. Quick exemple on Revetaur in Escha - Zi'Tah this time : Wind Blade : 53229 > 37260 (-30%) RDM Aero IV : 5975 > 4182 (-30%) You claimed that a RDM bursting before a BLM would reduce their damage by 60% unless a RUN was used and then it was by 30%. We have tons of in game evidence that this is not the case. Especially as you had completely forgotten that the SCH's SC nukes count as magic damage too. But keep moving those goal posts and changing your stance, you can't argue yourself right. Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: » I'm going to have to say my experience leans more toward what Saevel saw eyeballing, but I have some samples from hidhaegg that may be helpful if anyone wants to attempt to find a pattern. There is absolutely not a 60% reduction nor seemingly any cumulative reduction, as my 8th burst seems to be about 30% off my first when factoring the difference between BLM and GEO traits(though in some cases it's much closer, penalty certainly seems variable). Not sure if anyone cares, but it seemed to be a more relevant dataset than those that were previously mentioned. I have many more pages of logs from the same fights, if they are desired. We'd need to see what BLM1 and BLM2 tier6 would have done if the GEOs didn't nuke first. From my experience with that NM, BLM's tier6 should easily be doing in the 20K+ range(My logs show I was doing 23K Thundaja back in Sept.). If BLM1 and 2 did aja>tier6 for 20K>15K per MB(low estimate), that'd be much more damage than you nuking on GEO too: 51K with GEO vs 70K without. From my personal experience, even 1 nuke will significantly reduce my BLM's MB damage if done between the BLM's nuke(think of SCH's closing nuke for SC as 1, next nuke as 2(which is always unresisted) and any after that will get slammed with the -DT). I still maintain that 1 or 2 BLM nuking without any other mages adding to the resistance will always outperform every mage throwing in a nuke. Though it's clear that it hardly matters for most NMs in the game since we're talking about maybe 1-3min faster kills, but difficult fights like WoC and Kirin and maybe even the 145 Reisen NMs, I'm confident it's better to let the most optimal mages nuke for maximum damage. Not claiming that setup was optimal, just a 20 min bot I threw together to dump all my accolades. Eyeballing the logs, I'm just not seeing any major drop besides the resists that were mixed in.
It seems all besides the first nuke have a seemingly flat penalty applied. If the penalty lasts 10 seconds, that would mean all nukes are effected.. but even when doing 8 bursts in one chain, the last nuke does not appear to be crippled any noticable amount more than the second. Note that SCH fragmentation does not use a thunder nuke, so the SCH skillchain should not be considered here. The official notes on that patch even said same element. Ragnarok.Ejiin said: » From my personal experience, even 1 nuke will significantly reduce my BLM's MB damage if done between the BLM's nuke. So which is it, one or two? Two BLM's double MBing would be four nukes, one BLM double MBing would be two nukes. If two BLM's is fine, then one BLM + <someone else> is also fine. SCH Aero (closing detonation SC) - Nuke 1 (no resistance) BLM 1 Aero VI - Nuke 2 (no resistance) BLM 2 Aero VI - Nuke 3 (small resistance here) BLM 1 Aeroja - Nuke 4 (medium resistance) BLM 2 Aeroja - Nuke 5 (large resistance) That is what most of you are likely seeing and why the SCH should try not to use Tier 1's unless it's necessary (vagery for example) and you should vary your elements if possible. SCH Water (closing fragmentation SC) - Nuke 1 Water BLM 1 Thunder VI - Nuke 1 Thunder (no resistance) BLM 2 Thunder VI - Nuke 2 Thunder (no resistance) BLM 1 Aero VI - Nuke 1 Wind (no resistance) BLM 2 Aero VI - Nuke 2 Wind (no resistance) That is what we usually do it won't run into the kinds of problems you guys are talking about. It's certainly not a 60% cut on the second or even third nuke as absolutely none of your SCH SC strategies would work then. 60% would happen around the 5th or 6th nuke, but your could start seeing resist issues before then, especially on content where your barely making the first resist check to begin with. Remember once you cross under 50% magic hit rate your damage goes to ***very fast, so if that second nuke push's the magic evasion up just enough to force you past that line, then the third and fourth nukes are going to be horrific. If there was a significant enough magic evasion boost to effect people at the 3rd-4th nuke, I can't imagine I'd be getting the results I did. My 8th nuke did not exhibit low enough damage to have been a resist in any of those logs, and I was wearing very minimal m.acc(I saw huge resist rates with only focus or only languor).
I'll try to do some more testing when I can get with my peoples. You've shown experiencing no stacking resistance penalties while I've experienced small ones that compound and yet others are talking about 60% after the first nuke type stuff. There is definitely something more complicated going on here.
If you could possible do that exact same setup but this time without the GEO's nuking at all, just to see if there is a difference. Possibly on a different NM. Would be a great help to triangulating the mechanic at play. Asura.Saevel said: » You claimed that a RDM bursting before a BLM would reduce their damage by 60% unless a RUN was used and then it was by 30%. We have tons of in game evidence that this is not the case. Especially as you had completely forgotten that the SCH's SC nukes count as magic damage too. But keep moving those goal posts and changing your stance, you can't argue yourself right. In the 2 BLM example, the BLM nuking second will always see a reduction, which seems to vary from 30 to 60% based on NM level, or something that isn't clear yet. The resistance window resets fast enough that the 2nd wave of MBs will have a clean slate when it comes to the resist wall.
Best example I can give you that you can see for yourself is my Kirin clear video. BLM1 had far, far worse gear than BLM2, and BLM2 still saw a very noticeable reduction even with Rayke on. Kirin Skillchain 1: BLM1 Aeroja - 64454 (maybe some reduction, but I doubt it) BLM2 Aeroja - 41942 (over 34% reduction) --Resist wall resets between 2nd round of nukes-- BLM1 Aero6 - 99243 (clearly no reduction) BLM2 Aero6 - 53006 (over 46% reduction) Kouryu Skillchain 1: BLM1 Aeroja - 34703 (no reduction) BLM2 Aeroja - 23279 (33% reduction) --Resist wall resets-- BLM1 Aero6 - 77872 (clearly no reduction) BLM2 Aero6 - 49881 (36% reduction) You can't really base much off of this in terms of what exactly is going on, except the BLM nuking second is clearly getting slammed damage-wise, and that's with Rayke up. I can confidently say if we allowed our SCH and GEOs to nuke on this NM, it would be such a drastic detriment that it'd turn a high success strategy into a low chance of success strategy due to how much extra time you're adding to the fight, which is a big nono. Ragnarok.Ejiin said: » In the 2 BLM example, the BLM nuking second will always see a reduction, which seems to vary from 30 to 60% based on NM level, or something that isn't clear yet. The resistance window resets fast enough that the 2nd wave of MBs will have a clean slate when it comes to the resist wall. We've done lots of double nuking and never seen that, ever. SCH does T2 SC and we hammer it with four or more nukes. We only see reductions in the last few nukes but definitely not what your seeing on the second nuke. Granted it's not on Kirin and are you doing Detonation or Fragmentation with your SCH? It's entirely possible that the penalty scales with iLevel difference or some other content level mechanic involved here designed specifically against an army of BLM's bursting off a single SCH's SC. On a side note, Papesse problem solved. Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: » If there was a significant enough magic evasion boost to effect people at the 3rd-4th nuke, I can't imagine I'd be getting the results I did. My 8th nuke did not exhibit low enough damage to have been a resist in any of those logs, and I was wearing very minimal m.acc(I saw huge resist rates with only focus or only languor). If you go off my numbers for the damage that's possible on that NM(25K range for tier6), your 2 BLM's tier6 are both getting -60% reductions. I don't think anyone has claimed that the reduction can go past -60% yet. Doing some testing on lower NMs without magic bursts to try to quantify this, writing it all up as I go for scrutiny. That said, I've reached one conclusion so far that hasn't been posted yet: The penalty is proportional to the amount of damage dealt recently, not necessarily the amount of nukes.
Boreal Hound data:
I plan to continue the testing using higher nukes on a more worthwhile target. However, I found the results quite interesting here. In short: -I could not produce a penalty higher than 20%. -I could produce a 20% penalty by using a single T6 prior to the control nuke. -Using 5 T1s immediately prior to the control nuke maxed at a penalty of around 10%, and was clearly proportional to their total damage.
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