Are You A Lukewarm Christian?

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Are You A Lukewarm Christian?
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 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-01-31 12:45:07
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What is exactly would perfection look like to compare it to what occurs in this realm? The very process of evolution relies on a dynamic change over long periods of time caused by those very imperfections interacting with the environment.

Even in the Bible God is shown to be making mistakes so even the supreme entity of all things is at the end of the day flawed.

Perfection is an impossible ideal. A way of comparing our state to that which can never exist.
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-01-31 12:46:12
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Just some food for thought, a little different take on the state of existence. This is not meant as an attack on religious people or faith, just a different way of looking at reality.

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 Valefor.Endoq
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By Valefor.Endoq 2014-01-31 12:46:21
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Valefor.Endoq said: »
Please note that I posted this in the "Politics and Religion" topic, so please no hateful or anti religion remarks or flame-wars.

This post is for my fellow Christians, but I welcome all who are not, but do have a genuine interest in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

I spent many years being a lukewarm Christian after I first accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior, and in the last year or so I have devoted myself to him and my life has changed for the better in ways I never imagined possible. and today in my studies I came across some informative websites that touched on some issues that have bothered me for some time now.

Here is the info from those websites.

Are You A Lukewarm Christian?

Bible Verses about lukewarm Christians:

Another thing that seems to be left out these days is the teaching of what repentance is. Is asking for forgiveness without repenting really meaningful? To truly mean it is to repent from that sin, to repent is to turn away from it, not because of the consequences but because of a genuine disdain for sin. To repent and then turn back to the same sin again is like a dog eating its own vomit just to become sick all over again...

Valefor.Endoq said: »
ScaevolaBahamut said: »
I was to understand the entire point of Christian Apologetics was there is no way for a human being to NOT be "lukewarm", by this standard, but Jesus died to make all that okay and all that was really needed for a Christian to be good in the eyes of God was to repent and try to do better, y/n?

Christian Apologetics: Checking Your Privilege Since 325 AD
Yes all that is required it to repent and accept Jesus Christ as your only savior and Lord. This post was more to help further that relationship with god and to live our full potential as we try our best to walk in his foot steps, yes it is impossible to reach perfection but that is part of the test to, in life we learn how much we need his guidance and how short we fall compared to him, but we must all try our best no matter how many times we inevitably fail and in all this is learn things like humility and compassion and the realization that no one is in any position to pass judgement and look down onto any other person
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 Siren.Mosin
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By Siren.Mosin 2014-01-31 12:46:47
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Perfection is an impossible ideal

that is highly dependent on ones perception.
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 Phoenix.Amandarius
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2014-01-31 12:50:25
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Cerberus.Tikal said: »
Amandarius said:
Can't use logic to comprehend the origin of the Universe and not believe in God. God is the only logical conclusion. You believe in God but you just want to call it something else like a Multiverse or something. You must believe in a place not bound by the dimensions of space and time that created our dimensions of space and time. The only other options left are illogical; a Universe with no beginning ( a circle), something created from absolutely nothing, or you can simply believe the Universe doesn't exist at all. All illogical. Stop misusing the word logic as a crutch, instead of belief or logic just say you have arrogance,
Or, I can opt to believe in nothing because the amount of available information is insufficient to make an accurate assessment. Agnosticism.

Your logic is flawed, regardless. The first thing you must acquiesce in the above hypothetical is that all information is tentative and limited.

"I'm going to believe because I can't not believe in something" is such a shitty position to take, by the way.

But you yourself just said you believe in something that we cannot witness in the only dimensions that we are privy to and bound to. That's belief in something you can never prove. That's religion.
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2014-01-31 12:51:37
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Valefor.Endoq said: »
Valefor.Endoq said: »
Please note that I posted this in the "Politics and Religion" topic, so please no hateful or anti religion remarks or flame-wars.

This post is for my fellow Christians, but I welcome all who are not, but do have a genuine interest in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

I spent many years being a lukewarm Christian after I first accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior, and in the last year or so I have devoted myself to him and my life has changed for the better in ways I never imagined possible. and today in my studies I came across some informative websites that touched on some issues that have bothered me for some time now.

Here is the info from those websites.

Are You A Lukewarm Christian?

Bible Verses about lukewarm Christians:

Another thing that seems to be left out these days is the teaching of what repentance is. Is asking for forgiveness without repenting really meaningful? To truly mean it is to repent from that sin, to repent is to turn away from it, not because of the consequences but because of a genuine disdain for sin. To repent and then turn back to the same sin again is like a dog eating its own vomit just to become sick all over again...

Valefor.Endoq said: »
ScaevolaBahamut said: »
I was to understand the entire point of Christian Apologetics was there is no way for a human being to NOT be "lukewarm", by this standard, but Jesus died to make all that okay and all that was really needed for a Christian to be good in the eyes of God was to repent and try to do better, y/n?

Christian Apologetics: Checking Your Privilege Since 325 AD
Yes all that is required it to repent and accept Jesus Christ as your only savior and Lord. This post was more to help further that relationship with god and to live our full potential as we try our best to walk in his foot steps, yes it is impossible to reach perfection but that is part of the test to, in life we learn how much we need his guidance and how short we fall compared to him, but we must all try our best no matter how many times we inevitably fail and in all this is learn things like humility and compassion and the realization that no one is in any position to pass judgement and look down onto any other person
Bump

They're not passing judgement on you. They're giving their perspective.

Caitsith.Zahrah said: »
I think some Christians could have a more fulfilling spiritual experience were they to also be receptive to the teachings of Buddha. (Being receptive to all ideas/philosophies and approaching each with "Tabula Rasa"...There's a Buddhist lesson!) Some Christians could also benefit from the Buddhist idea that cycles of constant questioning and curiosity fulfillment are a valuable part of life also.
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 Phoenix.Amandarius
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2014-01-31 12:53:08
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Caitsith.Zahrah said: »
Phoenix.Amandarius said: »
Can't use logic to comprehend the origin of the Universe and not believe in God. God is the only logical conclusion. You believe in God but you just want to call it something else like a Multiverse or something. You must believe in a place not bound by the dimensions of space and time that created our dimensions of space and time. The only other options left are illogical; a Universe with no beginning ( a circle), something created from absolutely nothing, or you can simply believe the Universe doesn't exist at all. All illogical. Stop misusing the word logic as a crutch, instead of belief or logic just say you have arrogance,

What theological exploration, outside of Christianity, have you embarked on?

My own tortured path.
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2014-01-31 12:57:39
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Ragnarok.Ashman said: »
Saying "i'm not into religion because I'm intelligent" counts enough to me. Granted, I feel that they need to convince themselves more than anything. They're not like "join atheism" so much as they feel the need to stomp out your faith. Think a Klan member telling a white girl why interracial mixing is wrong. You, me and her might not agree but he's going to rant at you until you pretend you do. I've never seen a religious person carry on when someone tells them to *** off like some atheists do.

Lol, ok.

Keep acting like there aren't some batshit aggressive Christians trying to hawk their faith on you with threats of death, destruction and damnation. They are on the corners of streets across 'Murica, on TV every Sunday, in books and just abut everywhere. You only see atheists because they're the relatively new thoughtset on the block. And they also oppose your beliefs.

Today in Jesus: God gives kids autism because we support gay marriage. We must stop offending God or he'll throw another two or three Katrinas at us. Repent sinners. Expel the gays or suffer the wrath of Posiedon God. Yes, repent!

I wasn't acting like anything. I made an assertion based on my personal experience. I pretty clearly said "I" have never seen etc etc.
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-01-31 12:58:05
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Amandarius said:
But you yourself just said you believe in something that we cannot witness in the only dimensions that we are privy to and bound to. That's belief in something you can never prove. That's religion.
I'm at a loss here. What is it that I believe in?

And no, that's not religion – whatever that assertion was supposed to mean, it's not a religious stand point. It is not a core set of values or a belief structure that surrounds the belief-in and worship of gods.
 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-01-31 12:59:51
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Siren.Mosin said: »
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Perfection is an impossible ideal

that is highly dependent on ones perception.

Eastern religions?

I ask because we never get a Buddhist, Confucians, Hindus, Daoists or Shinto dropping into XIAH. A pity, eastern thought is far less about conversion and more about introspection.

But then again if people can't be bothered to read the Bible/Torah/Koran.... have you seen how thick eastern volumes get? Jesus, tl;dr
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-01-31 13:00:34
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I've taken a strong interest into buddhism lately.
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2014-01-31 13:01:10
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Siren.Mosin said: »
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Perfection is an impossible ideal

that is highly dependent on ones perception.

Eastern religions?

I ask because we never get a Buddhist, Confucians, Hindus, Daoists or Shinto dropping into XIAH.

They obviously have more sense than us.

Valefor.Sehachan said: »
I've taken a strong interest into buddhism lately.

There's several sects. Gets tah crackin', books that is.
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 Valefor.Endoq
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By Valefor.Endoq 2014-01-31 13:02:54
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Caitsith.Zahrah said: »

They're not passing judgement on you. They're giving they're perspective.

Huh? I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion of me saying anyone passed judgement on me or anyone else. I never said those word nor did I imply them.
 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-01-31 13:03:32
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Caitsith.Zahrah said: »
They obviously have more sense than us.

Enlightenment is most definitely not on this website. Only sisyphean tasks and the sadism that comes with it. XD
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 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-01-31 13:04:03
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Cerberus.Tikal said: »
That's called gnosticism Endoq. Gnostics claim knowledge. Agnostics deny knowledge. Flavin, unless you're going to provide something outside of "I feel you're wrong," I'm not even going to humor a real response.
It has nothing to do with how I feel. I never once said that I feel that you are wrong just that you are wrong.

Not only that you're post was very vague.

Disbelief itself really has no place in this converstation anyways as there is nothing to be in disbelief of. A state of disbelief is a refusal or inability to accept something we know to be true more akin to you explaining that the world is round to someone who still believes it is flat. It doesn't hold a negative value as much as the word doesn't even belong in this discussion.

I suppose nonbelief could be nuetral because it's more of a wait and see approach. I wouldn't ever really attribute this path to atheists though, as it has always seemed to me that they have made up their mind when it comes to this.

While athiests don't fit in a neatly wrapped little box that can be defined in one fell swoop (but what can really?) The ones that make statements like "god is not real" take a stance on the matter and form a belief. It is not fact. Neither side can prove that the other is wrong. If they could this wouldn't be a discussion anymore.
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 Valefor.Endoq
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By Valefor.Endoq 2014-01-31 13:04:33
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I bumped the main topic to keep things on topic.
I have to go out for a few... Please play nice everyone, lol.
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2014-01-31 13:04:39
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Cerberus.Tikal said: »
Amandarius said:
But you yourself just said you believe in something that we cannot witness in the only dimensions that we are privy to and bound to. That's belief in something you can never prove. That's religion.
I'm at a loss here. What is it that I believe in?

And no, that's not religion – whatever that assertion was supposed to mean, it's not a religious stand point. It is not a core set of values or a belief structure that surrounds the belief-in and worship of gods.

You said information is limited which implies belief in dimensions we cannot observe.

What was flawed in my claim? What other option is there. There either was an origin or there was no origin. No beginning is illogical. So we are left with a beginning which means there was nothing that became something. That is also illogical. Or you can assume that not only did the Universe have no origin but it never existed at all. Again illogical. You can observe anything you want in space and time one if the above will be the Absolute answer and they are all illogical.
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-01-31 13:08:23
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I suppose my Flatland analogy fell on deaf ears.
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By fonewear 2014-01-31 13:08:40
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Valefor.Endoq said: »
I bumped the main topic to keep things on topic.
I have to go out for a few... Please play nice everyone, lol.

It's all holding hands and singing in here no worries.
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 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-01-31 13:11:54
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Aman, it'll click eventually but believing that a God created the universe based on your logic still leaves you quite a distance from the Christian interpretation of God. Following your logic, you'd end up a deist, like the founders and not a Christian.

You must make another cosmic leap in beliefs to wind up at Christianity. One most definitely informed by your being born and raised around Christians in the United States in the late 20th century.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-01-31 13:12:24
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Phoenix.Amandarius said: »
Cerberus.Tikal said: »
Amandarius said:
But you yourself just said you believe in something that we cannot witness in the only dimensions that we are privy to and bound to. That's belief in something you can never prove. That's religion.
I'm at a loss here. What is it that I believe in?

And no, that's not religion – whatever that assertion was supposed to mean, it's not a religious stand point. It is not a core set of values or a belief structure that surrounds the belief-in and worship of gods.

You said information is limited which implies belief in dimensions we cannot observe.

What was flawed in my claim? What other option is there. There either was an origin or there was no origin. No beginning is illogical. So we are left with a beginning which means there was nothing that became something. That is also illogical. Or you can assume that not only did the Universe have no origin but it never existed at all. Again illogical. You can observe anything you want in space and time one if the above will be the Absolute answer and they are all illogical.

We do observe the big bang, though, it's a theory formed from the observation of the universal microwave background and motions of celestial bodies. There are well established laws of the universe that are from those observations and can be tested repeatedly with the same results. It is quite different than the observations of supernatural forces and entities because they are consistent and repeatable, supernatural occurrences are unrepeatable and inconsistent. They aren't the same thing.
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 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-01-31 13:14:57
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I just don't get all this... It seems like people are saying "I don't believe in this" but then going "but don't mistake that for a belief!" like having a certain belief is wrong or it somehow likens them to theism in some weird way. Wtf..
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 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-01-31 13:17:50
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Also, at the end of the day very few people care if you believe some God (why not a Goddess?) created the universe and left it for us to *** up or exist in. We can agree to disagree there and move on with our lives.

The problem lay in people who believe God is regulating our sex lives, wants you to be circumcised by a rabbi sucking the foreskin off your fresh cut penis, believes pork is unclean, routinely cares about who is sticking what where, believes nonbelievers should be put to the sword, treats women like garbage, has laid out some prophecy involving magic Jews in Jerusalem and is going to destroy the world with cataclysms once the legendary evil is awoken in the form of the President/Pope/whoever seems charismatic.

Your beliefs are all well and good till you start wanting the world to conform. People call religion poison because these dogmatic beliefs are responsible for numerous conflicts across the globe with Islam being the most virulent strain at present.

If it were just about living like Jesus, a humble man who had some beliefs and died because an oppressive empire had him executed then things would be fine. You don't need to ascribe magic powers to Jesus in order to get the point of the story.
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-01-31 13:19:30
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The circumcision practice might actually be a positive thing!
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-01-31 13:19:44
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Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
I just don't get all this... It seems like people are saying "I don't believe in this" but then going "but don't mistake that for a belief!" like having a certain belief is wrong or it somehow likens them to theism in some weird way. Wtf..

Meh, the biggest issue with labeling it a belief is that is opens the door to group non-belief in as a religion. It's a way for "luke-warm" religious people to paint non-believers as just another set of beliefs. If there wasn't an alterior motive for using specific wording, it would be a non-issue.
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By fonewear 2014-01-31 13:22:21
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
The circumcision practice might actually be a positive thing!

Oh ***it's about to get real in here. Talking bout snips.
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-01-31 13:26:30
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Amandarius said:
You said information is limited which implies belief in dimensions we cannot observe.
No, it is an inherent acknowledgment of the fact that humans are a species in its infancy, and that there is much more to learn in the observable universe. It's the idea of being humble in the face of concepts such as lightyears, black holes, and stars that are billions of times larger than the sun, which is billions the size of earth. We know exceedingly little about this space we exist in, and this silly concept of "who created the creator" is a straw man in the face of the potentially boundless.

Flavin said:
It has nothing to do with how I feel. I never once said that I feel that you are wrong just that you are wrong.
It has everything to do with how you feel Flav. It always does. You're predictable like that. Even this post, you don't breach yourself.

In case you still don't get it, it was an analogy for the sake of understanding. Negative, neutral, positive, was a way to lead through a simple concept and then apply it to the more complex concept that was being discussed. If you're arguing so heavily the analogy, you've missed the forest for the trees.
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2014-01-31 13:26:48
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Valefor.Endoq said: »
Caitsith.Zahrah said: »

They're not passing judgement on you. They're giving they're perspective.

Huh? I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion of me saying anyone passed judgement on me or anyone else. I never said those word nor did I imply them.

Okay. These threads get tricky.

What I also find funny is that Ecclesiastes is always trivialized by some Christians when it's purpose is to remind us that change is constant and inevitable, which can also be intertwined with Mahayana Buddhism. I've wondered since Confirmation, before I took my little swan-dive into other ideas of divinity, why that book was always marginalized.

Is it because invoking the concept of perpetual change is adverse to what some denominations symbiotically "need" from their parishioners?
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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-01-31 13:28:13
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Same ol religious hatred by people of no faith. Careful non-believers, in a previous life, secularists who had the capacity, started packing up those of faith onto train cars and sending them off to gas chambers...
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-01-31 13:29:29
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Same ol religious hatred by people of no faith. Careful non-believers, in a previous life, secularists who had the capacity, started packing up those of faith onto train cars and sending them off to gas chambers...

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