Animator's Workshop: A Puppetmaster's Guide 2.0

Being unwilling to do something isn't an issue, it's a personal preference or choice. On top of that, people still solo apex mobs or Reijblahblah for CP, why wouldn't they want a little extra damage boost?

I don't know the person that asked the question or what jobs they have, nor do you. All I'm saying is if they just want one (and the way they asked the question did imply that), then the things I listed would have to be considered. I'm not really sure why you're arguing about this.

First TWO hits.

No argument, just wanting to make sure what the best would be.

Edit: Also, this would had been my own question in conjunction with the question he posed... primarily for my knowledge, not so much his.

Ah, thought it was only the first hit, that's useful.

Multiattack bonuses have a chance to proc on the first two hit of a WS.
They cannot exceed the cap of 8 hits though.


"Special" multiattack bonuses sometimes behave differently. Like for instance the one from Mythic weapons AM3, if I recall it can only proc on the first hit of a WS.

DA/TA can proc on any hit of a multihit WS, but only twice. In theory QA COULD proc twice on a 2hit WS, I suppose.

Mythic AM3 can also proc on any hit, but only once. I believe if it does than DA/TA/QA can only proc on one additional hit. To be honestly though, I don't recall that part exactly.

Honestly, for a master-only focused TP cape you're probably best off with:
1) DEX (better than STR for TP phase, adds acc/crit rate)
2) Acc&Atk (obvious)
3) Double Attack (though for KKK-owners, DA is comparatively a bit weaker due to Mythic AM3 taking priority like Tru said... so maybe Store TP or Crit are better, but DA still gonna be solid)

For WS, it's STR, Acc&Atk, Crit. For Smite/Pummel, Crit is much better than WSD.

If you were just gonna make one master-only PUP cape for TP & WS though, I guess I'd lean toward STR, Acc&Atk, DA. STR is very important for both of PUP's major WS (and still provides something on TP), and DA is pretty good on WS even if Crit would be ideal.

FWIW, I have KKK and my TP cape is DEX, Acc&Atk, and Pet: Haste+10% since nearly any time I want to DD I will also want my puppet to DD. I also have a STR/Crit/Acc&Atk WS cape (and a pet tanking cape). I'm kinda fine giving up the 3rd master-focused slot on my TP cape, for the few occasions I'd want to melee solely by myself without a puppet melee buddy. Maybe one day when I've got absolutely nothing else to make I'll do a 100% master TP cape, but it's honestly not a big priority to me.

I solo apex crawlers with my auto, VE/SS, with KKK with no issues. Wish master damage was a bit higher, but when doing these mobs, its more Shantotto doing the work through MBing, I just set the skillchain with Koumei.

Im not going to get too deep into it, though. I haven't been able to get past the post stat-puke gear yet and I'm a bit over a year back in. One of the more knowledgeable pups'll be able to help out better, im sure, but remember:

If you love the job, it's never a waste. Even if you don't use it now, or even ever, you know you worked hard to make something for something youre passionate about.

Kinda hard to tell if it's any hit or the first two, but it doesn't matter in the end. Thing is there can only be two MA proc per WS

I wonder what happens if a second hit proc. Additional hits past 8 gets wasted and won't be calculated, or because a second QA proc would bring the number of hits past 8 (which is the maximum number of hits per attack round) then it gets canceled?
Would be annoying to test...

The rule of thumb is always the same I think.
MA can proc twice per WS, more in general we could probably say twice per attack round and consider a WS like an "attack round".
AM3 MA can proc only once per attack round (and WS), which means if AM3 happens, then other forms of MA won't be able to proc more than once.

Also the same applies to different sources of MA, they can't proc on the same hit, if one procs the other won't etc.

Generally anything current you don't want to be near the mob. Ohtas is probably superior to KKK for hybrid purposes just based on the fact the Automaton does superior damage compared to the Master.

Master damage is terrible, and anything hard enough where you will be asked to tank on PUP you will be far away. Plus, if you're tanking you will be most likely using Anwig Salade.

Pretty much was Stamos said is what I was getting at. You mentioned CP parties, thats why I mentioned about the crawlers, but end game, you wont be touching a mob.

Our PUP has tanked Teles several times over during the Dia Aura phase and has done wonderfully (master at a distance of course), but he is also geared and skilled enough to be trusted with that responsibility. It's pretty amazing to see what kind of abuse those automatons can take.

Self edit: Off topic.

What the hell?

Self edit: Off topic.

Dude WTF is your problem? You follow me around the forums talking ***. The problem was never about PUP's viability for end game or other content. The problem was about your PUP and your attitude.

Unless I'm talking directly to you, I'd ask that you keep your own "QQ'ing" to yourself.

Private message sent as to remove off-topic posts. I'd suggest doing the same.

I agree with the general sentiment that in its current state, PUP is overshadowed by other DD jobs for the DD role. Where PUP shines for "endgame" content is clearly in its tanking role, where you're going to want to use a weapon like Ohrmazd or Midnights anyway; neither KKK nor Ohtas is what you want in that situation.

KKK is clearly a DD weapon, so:
1) You're only using it when punching stuff
2) There is a much easier to obtain weapon in Ohtas that does very well in that same (and clearly secondary) role, so it probably good enough for the vast majority of PUPs
3) PUP still isn't an ideal job to fill a DD slot, so you're really just using the job for that purpose on lower impact content where "any melee DD" can fill the role.

That being said, if H2H ever gets some substantial buff, maybe the story changes a bit. MNK is in dire straits at the moment, so I wouldn't be utterly shocked to see H2H get a boost some day... and PUP as DD could benefit a lot from such a change.

Personally, I had a non-AG 119 KKK that I slacked off on upgrading for a long time in favor of more significant upgrades for other jobs (like afterglowing my Kikoku as a higher priority). I didn't decide to upgrade the KKK until the very recent additions of stuff like Optic Fiber II and Animator P/+1, making the puppet stronger and AM3 more desirable. But I'm a long time PUP lover since 2006 launch; the job has always kinda been my baby and if I didn't have such a soft spot for PUP I doubt I'd have found it so useful as to really warrant the upgrade that is really more of a very fancy toy for lower impact content. It does make for some fun times doing stuff like keeping AM3 rolling and doing "self" lv3 SCs with the puppet at a really rapid pace though!

I don't really agree that Ohtas is better than KKK, but it's close enough for a secondary role for PUP that I think KKK is far from necessary for the vast majority of situations where you'd use PUP to punch stuff. KKK is a great weapon for Apex mobs or messing around where any DD will do (say, filling a DD role on something lower impact like Ambuscade), but on hard content if you're using melee DDs, a more ideal setup is using something that isn't PUP for that slot.

I also disagree that the damage split should be Puppet > master. Master should be able to easily beat the puppet, at a minimum 60%/40% split (and likely higher in favor of the master). KKK is also pretty potent at increasing both master and puppet damage, since OA2-3x affects both master and pet. However, Mythic AM3 is a hassle to maintain in many situations, so KKK does rely on ability to keep AM3 rolling consistently and YMMV on whether that's viable depending on the particular situation.

And even KKK owners should still have Ohtas for more "pure puppet" situations, or when AM3 is not viable.

A note on Martial Arts:
KKK also stomps all over every other master DD weapon when you are not getting capped/near capped magical haste (cap @43.75% or 448/1024), thanks to the huge Martial Arts-50, so that's a consideration. I find it is a fairly practical one, since I'm not always getting capped magical haste on PUP in a party situation (e.g. BRD Marches, GEO haste, Haste II PLUS Mighty Guard, etc).

FWIW, if you're only getting Haste 2 (307/1024 magical haste, no JA haste from Samba) or equivalent, you need roughly 90 MA with a delay+49 weapon like KKK (actually 89 IIRC, but close enough to round to 90) in addition to 20/20 MA Job Points and 550 gift to cap delay reduction. I find it fairly practical to use KKK (50), Hizamaru+1 head (10), Cirque Necklace (10), and Mache Earrings x2 (20) to hit capped delay when getting Haste II only. I actually use that set a lot.

On the flip side, if you do have capped magical haste you're already at delay reduction (assuming 20/20 JP + 550 gift), so the MA on KKK adds nothing - and actually results in slightly less tp/hit. It's still a good weapon thanks to OA2-3x, but much less of a gap.

Sorry... double posting to also respond to this reply that showed up when I was writing :)


To be fair, they DID add some kick *** hybrid gear recently. Ohtas and Ambuscade cape can have great master stats along with 10% pet haste each. They added a good new master/puppet TP belt in Klouskap Sash. It's not that hard to cap pet haste (by far the most important stat for pets on gear) while sacrificing very little from the master. Accuracy and other pet stats are handled via attachments just fine, and we've received further puppet buffs through Optic Fiber II (really big), new animators, general buffs to the puppet over the past year or two that have been pretty major.

Hybrid master/puppet is clearly the way to go these days if you're ever gonna DD on PUP. And it will make you respectable in the DD role, but just not up to the level of a fully dedicated DD job. I'm kinda fine with that.


Nah, Ohtas are your hybrid master/pet DD weapon, for anyone who doesn't have KKK. See my previous post.

For tanking, you're gonna want either Ohrmazd, Midnights, or even the old lv75 Oberon's Sainti with a DT aug.

Yeah, for your use you'll probably get more out of Tizona if you want to make one Mythic for one of your 2 favorite jobs.

PUP is gonna shine more for tanking. Sometimes it's a lot better than a RUN tank (personally I prefer PUP tanks on the vast majority of content, for most anything except stuff with Doom, mobs with lots of hate resets, or tanking multiple mobs at once). RUN does fine on most stuff and really shines on some magic-using mobs, boosting nukers a bit with Rayke/Gambit, and really shutting down some nasty enfeebles. PLD is kinda the boring choice and not really optimal to me for most stuff, though it does beat the other tanks on some stuff like super-tank or multiple mob scenarios.

But if you have a good PUP tank setup... you can use that when a tank is needed, and move over to BLU if there's anything someone else is tanking and melee DD is viable. It's a little bit harder to fit PUP or BLU in on stuff where it's a tank + nuking backline setup, but I think you get your options/roles. And heck, if you wanted to make sure you fit in any setup with your jobs you might consider another backline job like a SCH BLM GEO COR WHM as a 3rd choice to allow you to fill all roles well: tank (PUP), melee DPS (BLU), and support.

SMN maybe works too, and I know it's effective on some stuff... I'm not super familiar with best case uses for it though, I've just got a couple SMN friends who can contribute (though it's nice that the job isn't useless on melee content or more nuker heavy setups). It's not exactly the most cookie-cutter job, but it's not in a particularly bad place as something that can be useful.


Haha :) - Lv75 or not, DT-10% on one piece is always gonna be OP. Especially for a job like PUP where defense on armor is not relevant like it is for player tanks (in that sense, 10% DT- for PUP on any piece is kinda equivalent to D.Ring for player tanks in a slot where defense doesn't exist in significant amounts). I'm fine keeping Anwig 4-eva lol.

No problem, always glad to talk PUP!

Also, I just noticed that in my previous reply I may have said something a little confusing about mage backline setups in that I said you'd have a harder time fitting PUP or BLU into that setup. I meant *if someone else is tanking* (like your RUN friend), it's harder for you to step in on BLU or as a redundant second tank. Certainly didn't mean PUP isn't an awesome solo tank for that kind of thing, it absolutely is and that's what I use my PUP for the most.

Still prefer PUP tanks on most endgame stuff too. Really the only times I prefer any other tank is for stuff where automaton is at a clear disadvantage due to situational things like:

- Mobs that are best back tanked (i.e. to avoid gaze attacks)
- Mobs with very frequent hate resets
- Mobs that use doom (can't remove with Repair/Maintenance)
- Super tanking/multiple mobs

Otherwise, automaton is IMHO the hardest tank to kill in a typical situation. The DT and regen is just too powerful, and you need practically zero support (no need for a dedicated healer, no need for buffs from support jobs, etc.).

My Ranger puppet out DDs LOTS of people and jobs. The master isn't anywhere close to what the puppet can do anymore. Valoredge, sure(Unless fighting undead) but Sharpshot is a total smoke show.