Animator's Workshop: A Puppetmaster's Guide 2.0

So sexy. That will be my mission in life now, that and RUN cape. Can't wait for Automaton to have an Animator with +Lv on it similar to SMN ammo but wishful thinking. Will definitely take this though.

Anyone know how to obtain yet?

500 points from Ambuscade. You can easily solo the cape, the augments might take some time if you are solo. We have been spamming Regular VD for points, and it seems much better than dealing with those orcs.

How are you spamming regular? Both says Orcs and regular doesn't work with orcs lol

It's actually Dragons. Just set it, and go destroy portal 2 in Zi'tah. Takes longer to get in than it does to even farm the pop.

Ahh we tried Abyssea attohwa and it worked for the first one, not the second one.

So max augs your looking at

Pet
Haste +10
acc/atk/racc/ratk + 20

Master acc/atk + 20


So in total its like pet acc +100 thanks to level +1

So any test on the best augments for new back?

What are peoples TP and WS gear looking like now?

Been wondering that myself since this guide isnt being worked on anymore *cough..*

I just recently got a KKK, and from reading some posts much earlier on, gear sets are different between having KKK and not. If anyone can shed some light on their sets, that'd be awesome.

Personally, KKK is only worth it if you are maintaining AM3. The other benefits are very marginal now adays.

1) Overload - with all the macro gear you can macro in to -overload, the only time KKK is worth it, is on a newly summoned pet if you are trying to use 3x of the same maneuver. Other than that, you should never overload anymore.

2) -MA, with JA and gifts, you actually hurt yourself if you are max haste on pup and using a KKK, all other weapons, the JA martial arts wont put us over cap, but the -50 from KKK will. Again, only an issue if you have capped magic haste, which with haste 2 + 2x bard trust haste is enough to make KKK cause you to lose tp/hit (minor, i know, but still a thing).


WS/tp gear mostly look like :
Herc + augments.

I know, very original right?
WS, you wanna use gorget/belt, rest will depending on which ws you are using/skill chaining with pet. People tend to prefer shijin spiral -> bone crusher -> light since it is the highest combination of 2 weapon skills.

My personal hybrid set:
main - ohtas (10 haste 70 acc)
5/5 herc with acc/atk/ta
back - new cape (10 haste (pet only), 20 acc/atk (master and pet))
Belt - hurch sash (acc and haste for master/pet)
rings - epona/adoulin pet ring
earring - blade/steel (im lazy)

Puts me well over the pet haste cap for pet, and if acc isnt an issue i will switch belt for windbuffet belt, and let my pet sit at 23% haste. This + shiromochi puts pet at a level when anything i can hit, he has the same hit rate or better.

Yeah. Suppose I asked because how underwhelming PUP dd is in Ambuscade. Going from doing 10-45k CDC on BLU to PUP was meh

Kinda felt the same way when I got my KKK. Was mainly blu for events and farming and ***, got KKK 119, went to kill stuff and wondering what the hell. :\

You are wondering why a bad weapon on a job that does not have any damage boosting abilities naturally with no good WS doesn't deal good damage?

There was a time when KKK was good. That time has since passed. With the release of Augmented Ohtas, it's not even really worth using KKK for AM3 anymore. I wouldn't even use it over Midnights for a maneuver piece since you at least get some stats with Midnights, and you aren't going to overload anyway.

After years of working on KKK, I was kind of expecting more. My bad...

Well, the big thing for KKK is still the MA-50 for when you don't have capped magical haste. Not an issue when solo with trusts, but it's not a terribly unrealistic scenario in party situations these days, when it's not as common to see groups using 2x March BRDs, Haste II, or wasting GEO bubbles on haste. Especially if you're in a 7+ person alliance and you aren't in the main DD party (because let's face it, PUP is gonna get kicked to the less support party in a lot of those situations).

It can also be very helpful that the AM3 OA2-3x affects master AND puppet for some hybrid situations, though Ohtas are more practical for serious content due to the acc. But, still useful for stuff like Apex parties doing "self" SCs with master+pet when you don't really need insane acc and you don't necessarily care so much about maximizing master damage (more about keeping the SCs rolling).

But yeah, PUP itself gearing for pure DD... other choices can win out now. Godhands are the best pure master damage choice now, a good pair of Condemners should win at least a lot of the time (and doesn't require the often finicky Mythic AM3 management), and Ohtas are very strong for situations where you need lots of acc, pet haste for a hybrid build, or both. KKK also gain a little back by boosting Stringing Pummel damage to where it's competitive with V.Smite for a KKK user (at the very least giving more SC flexibility), though that's not likely the determining factor for any pure DD considerations.

Still, let's not act like KKK are awful... "there was a time when KKK was good" is a bit overdramatic, implying they're BAD now. They're still in the top handful of weapons any time you want to punch stuff, and situationally can be #1. They're just not the definitive #1 weapon for EVERY offensive scenario that they once were.

I want to thanks for all of the great Puppetmonsters for the useful input on Pup DD! I usually use my Puppetmaster purely for tanking, and use Dancer for DD. As far as I know, my Pup sets are nearly optimized for tanking, but I have been using my pup gradually less without something to work towards. So I think I may begin making it a project to expand my PUP into various DD and support rolls as well. So I don't know much about the viability of the many different DD builds we can use.

Firstly, I understand that PUP DD may have a lower ceiling than other jobs, but the way I see it, most average DD players can clear content while only doing about 500~700 dps. My 700jp Dancer regularly beats almost all non-mythic BSTs and BLUs I've partied with, So I really feel like I can reach 700+ dps on PUP with a little work.

I would like to know how well different Puppetmaster builds perform in comparison to each other right now for 128+ content, and which ones are worth gearing for. What are your opinions on the performance and average DPS for:

Full Valoredge (Pet only)
Full Sharpshot (Pet only)
Full Spiritreaver (Pet only)
Sharpshot Frame + VE head (Pet only)
Master + VE (Hybrid)
Master + SS (Hybrid)
Master + SR (Hybrid)
Master + SS/VE (Hybrid)
Master + Stormwaker (Master only build)

If there are any other notably viable DD builds please let me know! Also, why does SE keep putting PUP on 119 MAB gear? Is there some secret use for MAB that I don't know about?

Basically, for PUP DD:

Start by thinking purely about a master TP set, which is gonna look something like:
ItemSet 340922
Herc augments: TA+4%, as much acc as you can get, and whatever else you can manage (Atk, crit, DA, attributes, etc.)

Swaps and downgrades:
Head: Taeon (holds up pretty well against all but a really well augmented Herc helm)
Neck: Asperity, Bilious/Combatant's, Ej
Body: Ryuo > Rawhide
Hands: Ryuo
Back: Relucent cape (especially for KKK users with capped magical haste, who don't need Martial Arts from Dispersal)
Legs: Herculean

For situations that call for more accuracy, swap in more high acc pieces as necessary. Generally your visible armor slots will be pretty high acc anyway, so you're looking to accessories like Dignitary's/Zennaroi earrings, Ramuh +1 or other high acc rings, Olseni belt, etc.


Hybrid builds:
If you're going for a hybrid build, with the new JSE cape it's geared more or less the same way as a master build, except cap pet gear haste with a minimal number of pieces (well, 25% gear haste is close enough for me at least, @250/1024). Don't bother gearing for lots of other pet stats, use attachments for stuff like pet acc because you're going to need the master stats to be a competent DD on your own. Currently, we can cap pet gear haste with just 3 pieces, which except for a 100% pet focused cape also have very good master stats. So, above set with the following swaps:

- Ohtas (Pet: Haste +10%) - if you weren't already using them
- Visucius Mantle (Pet: Haste +10%)
- Hurch'lan Sash (Pet: Haste +5%)

I would guess full VE is best for a hybrid/DD set these days, though maybe Sharpshot holds up a bit? Others might be better able to weigh in on the puppet debate though.

As for when to use a hybrid build... if you have decent support, it doesn't hurt to add more DPS via a puppet!

However, always worth considering Stormwaker or Soulsoother if you're light on buffs/heals from actual mages/support or trusts, in which case Stormwaker or Soulsoother can be very handy to make sure you aren't left unbuffed and alone... :P I'd rather have Haste II and some cures than get forgotten by buffers and have a DD puppet - self-sufficiency is important too! And Soulsoother as a backup/2nd healer isn't necessarily the worst choice just if you'ure using a healer trust, if there's any significant risk the trust might get itself killed (or even do something dumb like get into silencega range, where you can easily fix the puppet with repair/maintenance).

Pet-only builds:
In most cases I wouldn't really suggest pet only builds. It's simply not going to compete on damage any time it's safe for a player to melee alongside the puppet. But I guess it's potentially useful for pet-burn situations where you absolutely must stay out of AoE. In which case, stick pet gear in the other slots, something like:
ItemSet 340926
* Taeon has DA+5%, Acc/Racc+25 (max), and probably DT-4% (although this doesn't help DD, since you'd want to use the other Haste+25% gear from Ohtas/Vicusious/Ukko anyway and that means there's no real need for haste on Taeon any more, taking less damage is never a bad thing and this doubles as an excellent tanking piece too. Only other relevant DD augment from dusk stones is STR&CHR, and I think the DT- augment offers a lot more utility)
* Herculean pieces with good pet augments work too, though I think it's a lot easier to get a good Taeon pet DD set. Rao C is OK if you have neither, though isn't quite as good for DD as it is for tanking.
* Pitre+1 body (good acc and Store TP+13!) is a solid alternative too.
* Naga D feet are pretty good as a slight downgrade.
* Earrings have some flexibility if you lack one/both of the above. Charivari, Rimeice, or just toss on something purely defensive like Handler's +1.

Weapons:
* Despite some recent hand-wringing here suggesting otherwise, Kenkonken are still awesome any time you can take advantage of the OA2-3x AM3, particularly in hybrid builds since the AM3 affects the puppet too. (and FWIW, I'd rather have a puppet with AM3 but uncapped haste from losing Ohtas and not making it up elsewhere - or use some extra pet haste gear where possible). As long as you aren't acc-starved, KKK with AM3 up are probably still your best bet if using master+puppet DD. Plus, any time you're not getting capped magical haste, the MA+50 will easily push KKK above other options, including from a master-only perspective.

Also, remember that we're talking about best PUP weapons, not comparing "my KKK PUP doesn't out-DD my non-RMEA BLU" like some of the discussion here was doing...

* Ohtas are a lot closer to KKK now, and in situations where you needs tons of acc that could make them better. They're easy to get too, so no real excuse for anyone not to be able to get them at a minimum.

* From a pure master damage POV, I think Godhands are best in slot now, even without accounting for "Ultimate" skillchains and even ignoring that they're associated with a not-that-great WS.

* Verethragna probably fit in underneath KKK/Godhands/Ohtas, though if considering master only may end up 2nd to Godhands if you can't (a) take advantage of KKK's MA+50 and (b) consistently keep AM3 up.

* Condemnders and Comeuppances/+1 (UNM Tumult Curator, so... good luck) are also excellent non-RMEA options, and if not doing a hybrid build should at least situationally beat Ohtas (and KKK for that matter).

WS Gear:
To be added later when I have some more time (or others can weigh in here!)

Victory Smite is generally your go-to these days for non-KKK PUPs, unless using Stringing Pummel for its very nice Darkness SC utility (and SP is still solid damage-wise). They're basically geared the same, except no need for Fotia belt on SP. KKK PUPs may be more inclined to use Pummel more often thanks to the 30% mythic WS boost.

Final notes:
All this being said, PUP can absolutely provide competent DD, but don't expect it to hang with the best of the best. I generally find myself using my well geared Kikoku NIN or non-RMEA BLU when I care primarily about damage. PUP does get a ton of use for me these days, but primarily as a tank.

Thank you for the help, though I was really looking for comparisons between automaton builds (Valoredge, Sharpshot, Spiritreaver, etc...), not more gear recommendations. There is already plenty of info involving gear recommendations, but we're quite lacking in up-to-date info on actual automaton builds for DD.

For example, what is viable to use for hybrid builds out of Valoredge, Sharpshot, or mixed loadouts, and how do they compare with a master focused build DPS-wise. What automaton loadouts are viable for pet-only builds?

Capuchin,

Thank you for providing an up-to-date mini guide. I had no idea about that one earring (Burana) even being available.

Small note about victory smite: for hybrid,when used with inhibitor, it will force bone crusher. I haven't done much damage testing on it though since I pretty much have a meh hybrid build and a -dt set.

Since there's now so little difference between a master-only gear set and a hybrid set, current thinking should probably be that if you're trying to fill a DD role it's always worth using master + DD puppet these days (assuming you have sufficient support so that a WHM RDM puppet isn't necessary to make up for deficiencies in party composition). Older times when you needed more pet focused gear to make pet damage significant meant focusing only on the master was best a lot of the time (I'd argue almost always, if the situation was safe enough to use melee players), but the very recent additions of new JSE back and augmented Ohtas with their large amounts of pet haste/acc have really changed things.

The additional DPS you get from the puppet should EASILY outweigh the minor hits to master DPS from using a different back/waist, regardless of whether you're using KKK or Ohtas (really the primary two choices for weapon either from a master-only or hybrid setup). Using a purely master-only focused weapon probably also won't beat either KKK (assuming consistent use of AM3 is viable) or Ohtas if you're using a DD puppet - but if due to the need for extra support you aren't using a DD puppet, something like Condemners with good augs could be reasonable, or Godhands or Vere if you're happen to have those for dual use with MNK PUP (though IDK that I'd suggest making either for PUP-only purposes except as a very fancy trophy).

Puppet selection and attachment loadout:
As for puppet selection, I think VE/VE is the ideal partner now for the overwhelming majority of DD-focused scenarios thanks mainly to puppet WS strength and frequency and its particular attachment elemental capacity. I don't have in specific DPS number comparisons, but if anyone else has additional comparisons between puppets (e.g. SS/SS or SS/VE), please weigh in! Spiritreaver potentially has some use in purely MB-focused scenarios, but keeping nuke-specific gear for those fairly rare cases seems like overkill to me (and honestly, it's an inconsequential gimmick for purposes like CP farming when you can better fill other roles like tank+SC starter). I'd put Spiritreaver in "quirky parlor trick only" territory.

Attachments will vary based on situation, but you'll pretty much always want both Turbo Chargers, Target Marker (on anything that "matters"), Optical Fiber, and probably Coiler. Thunder would vary based on acc needs, Stabilizers as necessary and remove them for Dynamos as much as you can. Fire also varies based on whether Inhibitor is helpful in the particular party setup/SC needs, but otherwise atk+ attachments. Extra slots prob gonna want Auto-Repair kits, and phys/magic DT attachments as much as you can fit and tailored toward the type of damage you're anticipating getting hit with. Primarily, use wind/thunder maneuvers to cap delay reduction to the extent possible while maintaining good acc (probably roll 2 wind 1 thunder in most cases).

Its always been odd to me that VE/VE > VE/SS > SS/SS. I made a pet spread sheet a while back to calculate their DD with different attachments, and the big take home was that SS/SS would have to chase the mobs and melee otherwise its DD is worthless.

VE/VE and VE/SS are very close DD wise, but due to not being able to pick weapon skills, VE/VE pulls ahead with the standard maneuver sets.

I've had my muppet set to VE/VE for months now without much reason to change aside from swapping a handful of attachments depending on whether I am tanking or just DD.

I miss Armor Piercer though :( So satisfying.

I find myself rarely using Target Marker these days. It's only useful really for content 135+, and if we are doing that I'm tanking anyway.

I so rarely DD on PUP anymore I don't even bother updating my sets. I don't use my mage frames either. I literally just use PUP for OD Zergs or for tanking. If SE doesn't do something to make H2H WS not suck so much, there isn't much point in DDing on PUP unless you're solo or teamed up with other PUPs.

Does anyone have any insights on exactly how puppets respond to instant-KO moves?

A while back I was getting a clear for Hall of Mul (I wasn't playing during Legion's heyday) and noted that Death Prophet from the Mantids would kill me, my partners, my trusts, but never my puppet.

After helping someone else out today to clear Hall of Mul, I went out and messed around with other Death using monsters (the easiest ones to spawn I could find).

Death (Spell): Lord Asas - No effect after 7 casts. I thought it might've been because of iLevel, so I took off Divinator after the first 3 casts and still no effect.

Deathly Glare: Kabandha - No effect, except ~70 damage.

Extremely Bad Breath: Melancholic Moira - This DID OHKO, unlike the other moves.

I didn't test but I seem to remember Zantetsuken and Marine Mayhem kill puppets too?

What's going on here? Why is the puppet dying to some of these moves, and not others?

Fair enough. I don't really use my PUP for DD very often these days either, but it's not very hard to keep geared if you use other light DD/martial arts jobs as it basically uses 95% of the same stuff and easily obtained JSE gear (e.g. back, Oboro weapon).

But yeah, it's a lot like PLD in the sense that the job is now clearly best used as a tank, and while you could gear for "DD PLD" if you wanted (say, doing some CP or lower impact content), that's obviously not the strongest niche for the job and isn't going to hang with the top DDs.

For mage frames, RDM frame can still be nice for buffs if you're doing some lowman stuff or for self-sufficiency when you don't need a tank and have 7+ people. WHM for backup for a trust healer isn't bad on something like high tier battlefields. I don't really feel that BLM frame is ever of much use, pretty much ignore that one.


MM definitely kills puppets. In fact, it's rather annoying when using a tanking puppet in Sinister Reign because the puppet often won't get close enough to Arciela's summoned shark to avoid MM.

As for other Death/one hit KO moves, I'd be interested to see feedback as well. Perhaps some of it is down to the massive HP of puppets? As in, the moves work sort of like Tyrant Tusk and kill if they bring the target down to below x% of max HP (or maybe do more than x% of the target's HP in damage). Effectively, those might kill the vast majority of players but not a puppet with a 4000+ HP pool.

Hello All! Wanting to pull PUP our after a pretty long time of being dormant. I have some decent pieces of herc gear, etc, a few weapon options, (midnights, ohtas, condemmers) was wondering, if anyone had a semi recent spreadsheet for pup they would be willing to share? Also, although i have a lot to read still, any overall advice would be appreciated, i plan on soloing for cp, and eventually tanking. Thanks in advance!

I've been wondering about a WS set for stringing pummel or victory smite, does anyone have any pointers?

Can anyone post their luas for pup? I'm looking for ideas. I don't use motes stuff, so non-mote based luas are appreciated.

Does equipment that enhances Repair have to be only worn when Repair is used or does it have to be worn throughout the duration of the Regen effect?

Spreadsheets really don't work for PUP, because in order to do good damage you have to synergize with your automaton and make skillchains. There is a lot more skill involved than with other jobs when you do this, and it's hard to say exactly how the puppet is going to move. So the ideal things to do are going to vary so much by situation that it's hard to get anything accurate from a spreadsheet.


You use essentially the same set for both. You want to focus on stacking STR, Crit hit rate and Crit hit damage. Part of being a good PUP is knowing when to use one or the other, and how you need your automaton to react to those WS.


If you want to play PUP seriously, Gearswap is going to do more harm than good. Most of your swaps HAVE to be done manually, because GS doesn't detect a lot of things about your Automaton. With all the changes to automatons over the last year, you really want to focus on synergy with your automaton, so firing and forgetting your puppet isn't a thing anymore.


You have to wear the equipment the entire time. It's super not worth it. It doesn't affect the initial amount healed, and with Automatons how they are now I don't use any repair+ gear anymore.