Animator's Workshop: A Puppetmaster's Guide 2.0

So is Karagozz Feet +1 better than Pitre Feet +1?

+20 int vs +15 macc/18 matk?

It sounds like virtually no one has the Karagozz to test with.

I imagine it goes like this.

If you are fighting something where dInt isn't >0, Empy feet are probably better. More M.acc in that case, and I believe INT has a more profound effect until you are at at least ten over your target? Dunno, something like that.

I have Karagoz and I use them in my nuke set simply because I have no Pitre+1.
I can see Karagoz being better if you already have a lot of Mab and do not need the macc, but if macc matters no way Karagoz are ever going to be better than Pitre.

Remember that, as far as we know, Automaton math follows the same exact math of players, so in most situations you should be able to apply that question on, say, BLM job.
Would INT +20 be better than Mab/macc +18 for Tier5 nukes on BLM?
Depends on the rest of your gear, but most of the times it shouldn't be better.


Also if I may add some cheap (and worst) alternative to nuking, maybe something to use as you're building the best stuff:
1) Regimen Mittens offer Macc. No damage but better than nothing.
2) Pitre+1 hat offers Magic Crit. Again, better than nothing if you already have it. (you should! It's awesome for idle)
3) ACP body can get Macc/Mab +7
4) Delve 113 H2H weapon gets Pet Macc, Delve 119 H2H weapon gets Pet Mab

1INT = 1 M.acc until you are 10 over your target. This is relevant moreso for Automaton's than players because Automaton get nowhere near the stat buffs players do. On anything worthwhile, your INT is going to be lower than your target's. Unless you have Overdrive up. So in instances where m.acc does matter, Karagoz is better because dInt isn't going to be >10 anyway. After 10 it drops to Int = 0.5 M.acc. I imagine relic for anything 125 and lower, and Empy for anything higher.

Someone asked me about cure cheating a moment ago. Cure cheating is a trick PLDs used to use that drops your maximum HP with gear, then you reequip your gear and use cures to heal HP you artificially lost. Using Damage gauge, you can do the same thing with your automaton using SS/HQ. VE/HQ is actually MUCH better at it since it will always cast Cure IV which is the highest enmity cure. In any instance where you don't need shell, VE/HQ is the better bet.

Another interesting thing worth note. Replicator is kinda awesome now. I tanked Wrathare last night using Damage Guage and Replicator, while using Role Reversal to lower my Automaton's HP to trigger Replicator without subjecting my automaton to getting hit. Hate is very difficult to hold in that fight due to the sheer number of hate resets and not being able to time Automaton hate tools. But he did hold hate for the last half of the fight pretty much, and that's when he really needed to so it worked.

So, after messing around this week with Spiritreaver with a pretty high end gear set and 100JP gift, here's why I'm not sold on it: it does nothing a player BLM SCH can't do just as well, and using PUP is both a LOT more finicky and has far less overall utility.

The main reason BST pets and tanking automatons are so useful these days is because they have a distinct advantage over players in that they allow players to stand back out of range of dangerous mobs (while still doing a great job fulfilling the DD/tank roles), while also requiring less support (i.e. no need for a healer). Spiritreaver does not have that advantage, since a normal BLM SCH can already stand back to do significant damage on any fight that's nuke-friendly.

• Players aren't hindered by having to deal with AI that might cause an Aspir/Drain if you're not careful or below 75% MP.

• Players can cast low tier nukes if the situation calls for it instead of blasting away with tier 5 only.

• Players can use AoE nukes, Sleepga, selected debuffs. PUP can do a few of these typical backline support extras with /mage sub (e.g. raises, haste, refresh, flurry, -na), but you're also working with a very limited MP pool.

• Players can ALWAYS select the element they want, rather than relying on automaton element resist AI logic to hopefully make the selection you want.

• It's much easier to coordinate MBs or timed simultaneous nukes with other players than with a PUP for basically the same results (even if you can be fairly sure the auto will cast the right element, you still have to have 3x Ice up for maximum Ice Maker benefit and MP conditions right to avoid enfeebles). You CAN do it on PUP, but it's a heck of a lot more complicated.

• Unless you're in a party with multiple PUP SMN, a COR putting Puppet Roll (the only non-GEO buff that matters for you) is kind of annoying, and prevents them from using rolls that allow the COR to contribute significant damage in their own right. Makes me wish Puppet and Drachen Roll had switched levels, so you could PUP/COR and buff yourself with subjob strength Puppet Roll...

Yeah, we can get flashy screenshots on a huge Ice Maker enhanced MB on an Acuex or Umbril (BLM can also get flashy MBs on trash mobs), but... who really cares about that other than as a neat trick? I'm more interested in performance on stuff that matters more than CP mobs: Escha NMs, UNM, Vagary, Sinister Reign, etc.

It's a nice trick to have in your back pocket when you are on PUP, you already have a tank, the situation calls for some magic damage, and you don't have an actual nuking job to change to (or a good support job)... but honestly, I just don't see that situation happening a whole lot.

For me, I think I'm back to utilizing tank automaton more (or just straight up DD PUP when viable) since that's a niche that is less easily filled by players.

Divinator III - Automaton plays mage better.

Yeah, I agree. That doesn't necessarily mean nukes are going to be bad on every Escha NM, there's still plenty of room for magic damage (and Spiritreaver CAN still put out some impressive numbers on nukes).

But for people looking at cherry picked screenshots of a perfectly set up MB on an Acuex, that's clearly not a very realistic representation of what you'll be doing on most content that matters.

Yep, but I think it's a fantastic point that you brought up to help make it clear that Umbril/Acuex screenshots aren't reflective of normal situations on stuff that matters.

We don't use Black Mages. Or any other non support job for that matter. Our situation is very unique. I imagine none of you play the way we do, and that's totally okay. Pretty much whatever I test and find I am using for myself, and just decide to share with you people. Use the info however you want.

However, there are some things to point out. Puppets have unlimited MP, so there isn't any kind of problem with MP.
With proper timing, it seems that the Automaton will never cast drain or aspir. I was able to go through Yorcia delve yesterday without ever hitting a Drain or Aspir. The timing is actually easier than I thought. The skillchain closer put a party line macro in to let people know he was closing, and hitting my deploy macro at the same time netted a Magic Burst 100% of the time.

Ice maker is more of a gimmick attachment that is super cool when you can actually use it, but on anything high tier it's probably not worth using. Rebuilding maneuvers is a pain in the ***.

WITHOUT Ice maker, 30-40k+ nukes are plenty possible depending on your support. If you only have one PUP though, don't try to nuke. It's utterly pointless. The Puppet battery works better the more puppets you can throw at something.

And puppetmasters do indeed have two unique aspects to them in these situations that do not apply to players. A. Hate and death are irrelevant. B. You can change your puppet up to another role in a group on the fly if you need to.

I still have to do more testing. The first time I did Tojil with just Beastmasters, it was a ***show because the method didn't exist previously. It still seems like it's worth investing time into, so I'm going to continue doing so.

I totally appreciate the input too, but you're definitely right that it's a very specific setup that the vast majority of people will never use. It's very cool that you can do it, but not exactly practical for 99% of the groups out there.

In situations where you say the more puppets the better, it's equally valid to say the more BLM SCH the better (and frankly, the BLM SCH method has a higher ceiling of effectiveness and a lower degree of difficulty). And I'd wager it's a heck of a lot more likely that most groups have a larger number of competent BLM SCH than they do multiple PUPs with high end nuking gear and the skill to pull it off.

But I'm not totally discounting it, especially also considering SMN being pretty strong these days and maybe getting even better as major updates come to a close. I could sure see SMN+PUP parties really wrecking some stuff with appropriate COR GEO support.


This is the one thing I sort of disagree with from your post (not "disagree" per se, but it's not a very important unique aspect). It's the age old red herring of "PUP is so versatile!". Not to rehash the same PUP arguments that have been around since 2006, but FFXI is a game where versatility isn't all that useful. It's generally far more effective to build a party of specialists. If you hang your hat on "I can play like 4 other jobs, but perform a little bit worse than all of them at the assigned role!", that's not really very impressive. You're basically a downgraded alternative to the job your party would really want.

Automaton tanking at the present isn't in that situation, it's a uniquely strong way to tank while keeping all of the players fairly safe on the backlines and requiring very little support for the tank. It's finally a niche for PUP that isn't served very well by other jobs. You're sturdier than a BST pet and less healing/support intensive than a PLD or RUN; only real issue is that enmity generation could stand to see some improvement.


What I'd really be interested in is anything you observe about Amplifiers. Specifically:
1) How much they boost spells. I get the impression it's some kind of straight multiplier based on number of ice maneuvers for each, and Amp I and II stack. But I could be missing something, and I don't know the actual numbers.

2) Is it REALLY necessary to use both to get the right spell casting logic? I might be inclined to use only one of them and get the right MB-ed nuke, but still use the rest of my ice slots for Tranquilizers, Loudspeakers, and the like...

What I mean by that is that if for some reason either someone dies or D/Cs, in 20-30 seconds you can refit to cover that role. This has actually happened to us before. It's not like it's something that happens often, but it's nice to be able to deal with it.

Not to derail any discussion, but I wanted to hear some feedback from others regarding Auto tanking (either solo or in the occasional instance of group play), before I started chucking time/money at more gear. In particular, I'm curious about the mainhand weapons others are carrying around for VE/VE, VE/HQ or SoS/HQ tanking.

Currently, I have a couple Ohrmazd ready to augment, one which already has Haste +3% and magic accuracy (Though I might change the Haste to Refresh or Cure pot. +15% for... reasons), and another blank one. For the blank one, I'm thinking DT -5%, acc/racc and STR-VIT-DEX+ would be the best defensive main-hand, but I honestly don't see any other denfensive PUPs to know for sure. I currently use the old ToM PDT -11% for tanking, but as others have pointed out before, it is incredibly easy to hit capped -PDT for the Auto. I'd like a more practical main-hand, as the extra -PDT from those H2H don't really open up more options in terms of equipment or attachments. Taking a look at Nibiru and Midnights augments, they also seem inferior to skirmish augments, albeit close enough to contend. Honestly, though, those are a bit of a hassle for me to get, so I'm still banking on Skirmish augments unless someone else has further insight.

Speaking of which, is +3% Haste the max you can get with Ohrmazd? Almost all sources claim this to be true, but it seems a bit off. I'm still 5% off from capped gear Haste, so I was hoping I could fill it with that when needed, but being capped at 3% seems like a waste of a slot next to -5% DT (Also factoring that Taeon can get 5% pet haste anyway). Does anyone have any evidence to prove otherwise? If not, I'd rather hold out and pray for Rimeice Earring/Penetrator cape in the near future. Or just re-augment some Taeon.

Re: auto tanking, I've been doing a bunch of this lately. I'm still learning on all this and would also appreciate feedback and will also be willing to answer questions.

I've tanked some Delve, a bunch of the NMs in Zitah, a handful in Ru'Aun, and all of them in Sinister Reign. When I started messing around with tanking I was full-timing Kenkonken. This, however, is a waste, because for most of this stuff we're killing with either all-magic damage or a combination of magic and BST pets. I've started subbing RDM, and I've brought my Ohtas out of storage mule. I've picked up a pair of Midnights and will idle in them on mobs that need acc. For mobs that need more turtle, I've made a pair of Ohrmazd with STR/DEX/VIT+10, DEF+20, DA/CRIT+3 - not perfect, but good enough with free mog pell stones ;)

My base tank set looks like:
anwig / empath / handler+1 / burana
taeon / regimen / overbearing / thurandaut
penetrating / ukko / taeon / taeon

Taeon's have acc, dt, and DA - again, not perfect, but serviceable. Ukko can be swapped out for Isa (which I finally just got last night and need to test with). Next up on my list for tanking setup is to pick up a Domesticator's and a Rimeice and see which I like better.

My other Taeon set is haste/MAB/repair and, duh, I use it for pet nuking and repair macro. I'm not sure if there's a cap on repair potency, can't seem to find any info on this. Anyone know what the scoop is? Either way, plan to pick up Nibiru Sainti - at the very least for nuking.

I started playing around with the Magic Burst automaton and saw something I thought was odd. Anyways, attachments include:

Inhibitor (to encourage SC)
Both amplifiers (to encourage MB)
Ice Maker
Loudspeaker II

This is what I was doing:
Automaton is idle.
Build up 3 Ice Maneuvers.
Get 1000+ TP, tactical switch to auto.
Get 1000+ TP for myself in a few seconds.
Stringing Pummel.
Hit deploy.
Automaton uses Knockout.
>>> All ice maneuvers suddenly disapear (huh?)
Scission.
Quickly hit ice maneuver so at least there is one up.
Automaton casts and bursts Stone V for around 6-8k.

I have no idea what would cause the ice maneuvers to be consumed.

Speaking of PDT, has anyone done testing to see what combination of Armor Plates + maneuvers + pet PDT in gear is required to hit that 87.5% cap?

Ice Maker absorbs all your ice maneuevers and turns it into extra dmg for your next spell. Aslong as you have Ice Maker on your automation your ice maneuvers will go away after every elemental spell

He is saying that his Ice maneuvers went away on a WS, not a spell. Which is odd.

Well, we have A LOT of options nowadays, but I believe the best way of going about hitting -damage caps is to not rely on Earth Maneuvers. If you're tanking, you're gonna be invested in Fire and Light maneuvers to perform your role, with the occasional Water/Wind/Thunder. You could dip in and out of capped -damage with Earth maneuvers, but even when solo, I rarely find the opportunity.

Although I say that nonchalantly, hitting that 87%~ cap requires a somewhat steep gear investment, but there is a bit of play. Just throwing our options out there, assuming with at least 100 JP Gift, we get:

Stout Servant III: -9% DT
Ohrmazd: -5% DT
Anwig Salade: -10% DT
Taeon set: Possible -16% DT from all four slots
Sheperd Chain: -2% DT
Rimeice Earring: -1% DT
Handlers Earring: -4% PDT
Isa Belt: -3% DT
Armor Plate IV: -20% PDT (?)
Armor Plate III: -15% PDT

Which should add up to -85% PDT, -BUT- we can save ourselves a couple slots with Thurandaut Ring (-3% DT) and the Optic Fiber attachment. With one Light Maneuver up, we should get a bonus -7%~ PDT from the Armor Plates, which could potentially replace the Handlers Earring with, say, Domestic Earring for an extra +5 Enmity. At that point, Thurandaut can effectively replace any piece of gear except Anwig, so it's really a matter of if you want some Haste or Accuracy from whatever slot you open up. As a disclaimer, I don't actually own all this gear to experiment with and claim it's the most efficient. However, it is theoretically the maximum, and is my current goal in terms of pure defensive play.

While we're on the subject, though, let's take a quick look at just pure -DT on the set. It's a whopping 46-49% -DT; that is nothing to scoff at. With SoS/HQ casting Pro/Shell V on itself, it's DEF can reach 1100+ and its MDT is roughly -75%. That's starting to encroach on Aegis PLD and RUN territory, without the need for Relic/Mythic/Ergon. Now, I'm not foolish enough to say that the Auto would ever fully replace a player tank, but I can see why SE would never buff the Automaton's enmity generation too much. It's just silly how durable and safe some of these frames can be. SoS/HQ is probably the most unkillable thing in the game with Regen IV and Repair Kit IV (Almost 137 Regen not including gear), capped -PDT and -75% MDT, self -na and erase and Maintenance, Cure V and VI, and +60% Potency Repairs. Also, I know it's not really talked about, but with capped JP in Repair, it can also give back 300 MP per use, which helps with Cure spam. Of course, VE/HQ is better at that with Cure IVs enmity generation, but from a pure "You can't kill me" perspective, a 1200 JP SoS/HQ is just plain ridiculous. Probably impractical, all things considered, yet it's something to keep in mind.

At 1200JP, damage is irrelevant. Nothing can hope to come close to killing my puppet, and he is very rarely not full on HP with one light maneuver. My Tanking set has me at 80%PDT and I don't recall how much Mdt. I don't use Anwig Salade, however. If I did, my Automaton would be at cap.

Something I rarely see anyone mention is that Automaton HP is actually very important, and is the reason why Rao gear is very good for tanking. CE Loss = 1800 × Damage Taken ÷ Maximum HP
I take so little damage from anything that I usually favor the extra HP over capped DT.

I'm still working on the best way to generate enmity and hold it with Automaton's, but it's a work in progress. I have some theories I am trying out though.

Edit: PDT might actually be capped now that I think about it. I think armor plate IV is actually 30% with no maneuvers, but I haven't tested it to make sure.

Trulusia would you be so kind as to post your attachment setup currently that you use to tank? I'm not at 1200 jp yet with pup but I can see me getting there but for the meantime I would like to see if I'm close to what you are doing.

How is Shock Absorber/Replicator now? afaik they buffed all effects that consume maneuvers, it would be interesting to see how much dmg the pet can absorb now plus the number of shadows/blinks.

I hope they become applicable for tanking.

Friendly reminder for the many people discussing tanking/DT earrings to not forget you can use Handler's (NQ) paired with Handler's+1 for max DT- in the ear slots.

Honestly though, any combination of the below is pretty solid. Kind of up to situation or personal preference.

Handler's +1 (DT-4%)
Handler's (DT-3%)
Rimeice (DT-1%, Enm+5)
Domesticator's (Enm+5, DA+3)
Burana (Regen+2, Atk/Ratk+15)

For tanking purposes, I personally like to give at least one ear slot to Enm+5, since holding hate is much more of a challenge to me than having enough DT/regen to be nearly unkillable.


If Armor Plate IV is really 30% with 0 maneuvers, we're talking (requiring only 100 gift):
30% - Armor Plate IV
15% - Armor Plate III
9% - Optic Fiber (1 light up, add 2.5% more when you have 2 light)
9% Stout Servant III
---
63% PDT- after attachments alone, leaving only 24.5% to make up with gear. Say, Anwig (10%), Ohrmazd (5%), Handler +1 (4%) to go up to 82%. For me, that's good enough right there. If you really want to add DT- Taeon pieces, you can. Personally, I prefer just using Haste/Acc/DA Taeon and capping automaton gear haste.

Though to be fair, it's also reasonable to try to drop the APIII in favor of other earth attachments, in which case you'd be making up the PDT- loss via gear if you feel it's necessary. And this doesn't take into account magic-heavy fights where you may need more DT/MDT-.

Working on my nuking set up. Not too easy to find people to spam battles like Ramuh V2 for Ukko Sash though.

I had no issues clearing it on Easy but struggled a lot with Normal. After 10-12 attempts I finally won on normal last night (no drops of course). Has anyone done any Difficult solos of the avatars on Pup? I imagine the 2hr of the avatars could easily be fatal since Pup lacks magic defense.

Most failed attempts would be caused by either trusts dying (all WHM/RDM trusts) or being screwed by paralyze. Serious, thunderspark will kill you for 1200 from a range of 46+ yalms its bullcrap.

My successful attempt I brought more meds, dawn mulsums (didn't actually need any) and halfway through the battle I disengaged and ran back to the entrance to let the trusts get all their mp back for the second half. I subbed WHM and kept up stoneskin as much as possible, which helped.

Thanks for the pet PDT stuff. There's a good number of ways to hit cap, then. I'm missing some of those pieces so I'll need to focus on getting them.

Okay, I'm not usually one to factually test things, since I have a poor tendency to overlook the obvious, but I ran a quick "1000 Needles" test on the AP IV. With no gear on and AP IV being the only equipped attachment, the Automaton took 292 damage and I took a clear 500. So, to make it a bit easier to understand, we'll double that value, and it comes out to 584. If we ignore the 9% DT from Stout Servant III, we get 674 which is roughly 33% -PDT. It would appear that Trulusia was pretty damn close in his assessment, or at the very least, I believe it as well. I'm hoping someone else can yield a similar result, to make 100% sure, but 33~ seems like a reliable number. Unfortunately, I neglected to test the -PDT with Earth Maneuvers up, so that's also more reason for further testing.

Don't have much to contribute here except to notice you didn't mention keeping a barpell up. Lately I've been doing a lot of /rdm for things where I can't use trusts and relying on stoneskin/phalanx/blink/barspell for survivability.

If it's not super difficult content, I've also found that Role Reversal alone is often enough to be perfectly fine for master healing. Will often be the case in lower level content where you can't use trusts - Dyna, Salvage, Abyssea (for a little while longer...).

Went PUP/WAR into Dyna yesterday to help a friend farm a few ADL pop sets, and I didn't even bother changing Valoredge out (I was punching mobs too, off solo while he was elsewhere in the zone). Role Reversal and I could easily get the puppet back to full HP usually with light maneuvers alone (and Repair if needed). Obviously /DNC or a healing puppet also works, but just a little tip that kinda surprised me in its effectiveness.

As for party content, if I'm not punching things I always struggle to figure out what to sub since nothing adds very much. I kinda think I'm starting to prefer /COR in that situation, as long as there's no COR main rolling Beast/Drachen (the only two pet rolls a /COR has access to).

The alternatives are basically:
/NIN (Utsu, sneak/invis)
/DNC (fairly meaningless other than Jig if you're not attacking)
/RDM /WHM (more to toss buffs on others than anything else - i.e. flurry a RNG or something, some minor defensive stuff like blink/SS)

For streak's situation of High Tier avatars, I might also suggest /RUN. Always pretty effective against fights with a single element of dangerous magic damage. (personally I actually solo a lot of avatars, but I just get on RUN main instead of PUP)