Endeavoring To Awaken --A Guide To Rune Fencer

Bingo, well said.

It's laughable that you're crying "bias" because I noted ONE potential weakness for RUN in a discussion where I was very positive overall about the job and even said I prefer it to PLD in most cases. Being 3rd place among three good tank jobs at handling physical damage still isn't bad, and doesn't mean RUN is not a capable tank. Just like PLD or PUP are still plenty capable at tanking despite having lower Meva than RUN.

But I certainly understand how that could be perceived as unreasonable anti-RUN bias. So if it helps, I'm sorry. What I meant to type was RUN IS PERFECT IN EVERY WAY GUYS NO OTHER TANK HAS ANY ADVANTAGES NEVER EVER. Better?


This is true, but there are also a lot of Aegis owners already out there so it's always going to be an relevant comparison until the end of FFXI. I'm not really assuming many people are starting from scratch these days (and like Nightfyre said, even if they were it's not that crazy of an investment when we're talking about stuff on the level of Reisenjima HELM).

Also, you conveniently ignored Nightfyre's other excellent point right after his sentence about equipping a shield...

Exactly. Neither a RUN nor a well geared endgame PLD is going to be getting so rocked on magic damage taken that it would be the deciding factor. The real reason you go with RUN is for the offensive (Rayke/Gambit) and defensive (Valiance, OFA, etc.) support.

You already showed it earlier by holding each job to a different standard.

Now if you had noted that PLD was frail against magic then it would be fine, or if you had left the frail part out and just noted that with gear RUN isn't troubled with physical then it would of been fine. Instead you went out of your way to note RUN as frail to physical while hand waiving that off on PLD.

That is the very definition of bias, and it's just perpetuating an old myth made shortly after RUN was created.


See it's show even now. The most dangerous attacks are magical by the way, physical hits tend to just be the regular auto-attacks which the RUN parry's more then the Aegis blocks.

My point is, and has always been, that RUN is as weak to physical as PLD is to magical. They are either both weak, or neither are. The same measuring stick must be used otherwise the judgement is false.

Once we start there then we can be honest about the rest.

And before you get your friend to start spamming the report button. This relates to this topic because RUNs, and those looking to utilize them, need to know where they really stand and what their real strengths and weakness's are, instead of the old perpetrated myth.

There isn't an original link. That image was something I passed to flip during a non-forum discussion. I don't think I've ever posted it.

As for the conditions of the test, they were as Flip stated, which she checked with me before posting it.
Base skill+merits.
No skill+ or block+ gear.
Specifically, tested on 133 Apex Toads.

For clarity, the non-reprisal Aegis/Ochain values are the test results. The other values in the table are calculated based on either, the reprisal formula SE gave us, or on the Skill/shield type differences in comparison to the test samples.

You may take these test samples with a small grain of salt, as the sample sizes were only around 2k hits. That would make for a variance of +/-2%.

At which point if you feel the data conflicts with previous tests, you may ask SE why the hell they're so damnned inconsistent. Because that's valid test data.

Ok with a +/- 2% it makes a bit of sense as block rate seems to go down about 1~2% per level difference. Also there seems to be a ~5% block rate floor. Would it be possible that the PLD's shield skill is being checked against the monsters "weapon skill" or some value that resembles this? Kind of how player base magic evasion is a C rank skill?

And seeing as Reisenjima T2 NM's are CL 135, T3's are what ~143~145? T4's HELM gotta be 150+?

It's not just possibly compared to the mobs combat skill, SE literally said it was. Source.
So, interestingly, both player and monster level never actually enter into it. Except in that our skill values are determined by level.

This is neat, because an old test of mine actually determined that player level wasn't a factor.

The reason I still use monster level as a stat in these tests, is because that's the only visible monster stat we have to work with.

Annoyingly, this also adds another potential variable to the test. What if the mobs for test A had A+ rank skill, bu the mobs in test B only had B+? Although, I don't even know if monsters use the same sort of combat skill ranks as players. they might just be uniform by level.

Regarding the block rate floor. I'd agree that there likely is one. In which case Aegis' actual value in that test was probably lower than 5%. But That's the only test I've done where a block rate was that low. Need to do a test on even higher level mobs to confirm it doesn't go lower. Well or wear some skill+ on the 133 mobs and see if block% goes up by the predicted amount.

Yeah I pretty much just interchange level =/= skill. I mean I guess if you are fighting a BLM or WHM monster and SE somehow coded it's skill to be C or B it might matter, but ultimately I just treat everything as having A ranked skill. I never saw that comment my Camate but I guessed it had to do with some skill or similiar value. SE is remarkably predictable with how they code these things, essentially shield block rate is treated the same as accuracy and magic resist. It also makes sense as +skill per level increase's every 10 levels or so. That could be responsible for some of the inconsistencies witnessed.

To the others, I apologize, CL130 might of been too low a number as it's not until Reisenjima T3's that stuff gets really difficult and they are much higher then CL135. I've melee burned all the T2's so I tend to forget that they are 135 content.

First off, I'm not reporting you or encouraging anyone to report you, get over your paranoia. And your fixation on "bias" is just distracting from your reasonable points.


I don't really think either are "weak" on either front, but if you have to compare the tanks I think it's fair to rank them. But fine, it's also a PLD disadvantage that it's innately weaker to magical damage before accounting for it with additional tools (most notably, obviously, Aegis - expensive but a simple and effective tool for sure).

To give you some credit where it's due, I think it's also fair to note that RUN has some excellent tools to mitigate its innate issues with physical damage. Good discussion on parry here (though regardless of how high your parry rate is, sometimes hits get through with no parry), and we haven't even been talking about Foil and how awesome that is (probably needs to be highlighted more as a RUN advantage, actually).

My own experience has still shown me that RUN is a bit more likely to get killed if there's some sort of slip-up. Because I and my group are certainly not perfect, sometimes mistakes do happen. It might be solely down to skill, a mistake by the tank/healers, R0s, or just some bad luck on unfortunately timed enemy moves that slip past RUN's tools like /NIN shadows, parries, whatever. It certainly doesn't mean RUN can't tank stuff, just that it's slightly more risky...

The flip side of that is that you GET SOME REWARD for that risk that a PLD certainly doesn't bring to the table, particularly Rayke/Gambit. That's well worth it in a lot of situations, and is the main reason I've been saying all along that in a typical single NM fight I'd generally favor RUN over PLD.

Also worth noting that if we're just talking about the "doesn't die" aspect of tanking, I strongly believe that both RUN and PLD are weaker than PUP in the current game so your in depth discussion is just bickering over who's second place and why. If I do have any personal bias it's toward PUP, which I'll readily admit that in practice I do find myself using more than my well geared RUN (or our LS PLDs). It's less stressful and more idiot-proof, which appeals to me because sometimes I do idiot things. I enjoy the extra insurance against being responsible for my group wiping when we do difficult stuff.

That also doesn't mean PUP is always worth it - no Rayke/Gambit, bad at handling adds, can't handle doom, etc. I really want to start using my RUN more often mainly for the enhancement to my SCH BLM buddies' damage - it's not really a matter of survival though, more one of kill speed/farming efficiency. I'll still probably default to PUP on something especially deadly where I think there's more chance a tank might die. And I'll still ask the LS to have one of the PLDs tank when we're doing anything with crowd control and multiple mobs to tank, because I don't like to tank that sort of thing on either my RUN or PUP.

TL;DR - RUN is good, let's not get too hung up on a single comment about one potential weakness that you should be aware of and can probably work around.

Ugh... Once again, I see someone is accusing others of bias or whatever while at the same time only seeing things in black and white/I'm right vs. everyone else is stupid.

Another thing to consider, and this weakness is considerable, everything described to aid RUN in surviving can be dispelled, whether it is a main or sub spell or ability.
Apart from mobs that remove equipment, Aegis can't be dispelled. Even in those cases, there is no cool down to re-equip it.
Even avoidance down doesn't dispel the benefit of Aegis.
Also of note, automatons cannot be dispelled.

I've been working on RUN lately, but have been very hesitant to take it out and tank anything serious because, as others have posted, I can't help but feel it is a more fragile option.
My PLD has Aegis, Ochain, Burt, platemail and full Souveran +1.
My PUP, which I only use for tanking, has 4/5 Rao +1, Shepherd's chain and all the trimmings.
My RUN is several months away from ergon because I never really thought I'd ever bother with either Adoulin job.
This all said, can RUN compete with just an Aettir? Or am I wise to leave it shelved until its gear is on the same level as my other tanking jobs.
To borrow phrasing from the aforementioned, No one cares how you [tank] on delve mobs.

While it's certainly true that RUN generally has more to lose from dispel, its most important abilities (wards and runes) are not subject to dispel.

Against things that can be shadow tanked, I would say yes as long as you know how to rotate utsusemi. You can basically take no damage with aettir against things that hits slow and and to moves blockable with shadows.

So it depend on targets.

Well, just so we can talk about something concrete, how about Escha Kirin? Loads of earth elemental damage, but also TP spam of highly damaging physical attacks.
Should one expect RUN to do well on this target without an ergon?

We've used an Aettir RUN on Kirin a couple times and it worked out just fine. Haven't tried it out on anything higher though because at the time that RUN was our only Idris GEO.

RUN tanking kirin is pretty much standard setup for this fight :p

Shadow tank also works on genbu maju etc.

Also if you have good support you can still tank things that can't be shadow tanked with sub blu, it's just more risky.

imho
a proper geared Epeolatry RUN (phalanx set, PDT/MDT sets, resist sets, cure pot sets etc etc) is just as unkillabel as an aegis/burtgang/ochain pld and brings more to the table in my opinion.

I have tanked Kirin/Kouryu and Warder of Courage using an Aettir, only came close to death if Horrid Roar went off on the former and hit me with a full Dispel. Courage will not Dispel you and most of his worst attacks/gimmicks are magic based.

Wait what! Didn't his melee hits do 9,999 damage per swing to your frail RUN? Wasn't WoC' instantly one-shoting you and deleveling you to one with a single swing of his hand?

Thought everyone said RUN was like .. "frail" to physical..

Just took my (Aettir)RUN to WoC for the first time today, Wynavs were a little nerve raking when I don't have Battuta up lol :(

Just tanked Onychopora, the Reisenjima T4 HELM Sandworm, with an Aettir. Just know what you are doing and plan, plan, plan.

Aettir is a bad weapon for this fight, nothing can beat x2 vampirism.

Was epic fun.


WTF?

Rua flat out resisted several of his TP moves, was hilarious.

Err... I would be interested to hear your reasoning on this. Blue Mage sub is absolute boss for anything 145-150 for Rune Fencer. I'm not seeing any scenario where Vampirism x2 and Ninja sub will win out on 145-150 content.



It's hard to see what I am doing given the video is not from my point of view but you hear something of a running commentary from me periodically. It is absolutely crucial that you have a macro ready to put all of your equipment back on in the event that you get hit with encumberence as the adds will chew you up.

Edit: Its worth reading the left window of Seven's chat log and seeing how often I either parry attacks from the main NM and its adds or outright evade. I think I actually outright resist Disgorge at one stage. Master on Rune Fencer really shows its worth with the steadily increasing parrying rate, magic evasion, magic defense and evasion.

Err my bad, was thinking at erynis actually -.-

I do have to say, JPs are probably as important to RUN as they are to BLU, which is saying something. Possibly even more so since the best BLU gift is at 1200 and it doesn't really get anything great from 1200-2100. RUN on the other hand gets really useful gifts from 1200-2100 since the values of the Meva and MDB gifts are so high, plus it gets another Inquartata boost.

Master Rune Fencer vs 0 JP Rune Fencer or even a RUN with several hundred JP is like night and day. +70 Meva is basically a non bell-boosted Attunement bubble by yourself, and with Aettir's new augs, you can rock +120 Meva, meaning just shy of full-time Idris Attunement, and the MDB gifts alone are just shy of an Idris Fend. Without JPs, RUN suffers a lot more from multi-element magical and status effect moves. Obviously all jobs benefit from these types of gifts but RUN's are really quite large.

Just a fair warning to people thinking about leveling and using RUN. If you want to do it, you need the JPs. I'm only a little over 700 JPs in, and already I notice a large difference in the magic damage taken against elements I haven't set up for, and resisting various status effects has become quite a bit more common. IMHO Gifts are pretty much how SE fixed RUN's weakness of being susceptible to multiple elements.

Also on multiple adds that don't hit uncharacteristically hard, RUN/BLU can do quite well. The AOE hate spells and Foil plus a good 55% PDT set and cocoon/phalanx can really make adds quite manageable. Obviously PLD is the go-to job for this role, but depending on what you're fighting, RUN can still fill this role admirably quite often as many adds don't hit terribly hard compared to the main NM and a turtled up RUN/BLU is pretty tough, even without Epeo. Judicious use of Stoneskin (since we can cast it quite fast), Wild Carrot/Healing Breeze and Aquaveil also gives some insurance. I don't know about top-tier content but at the very least for those looking to try RUN out on more stuff and get some experience, Escha-sky stuff and Incursion were pretty easy to tank adds on, and RUN/BLU is an absolutely monstrous enmity generator for single or AoE targets.

What I find most fun about playing RUN is also one of the things that makes it less attractive to some: it is a very busy job, and is less forgiving of mistakes. Player skill, knowledge, and attention are crucial to RUN's performance in a much bigger way compared to PLD. RUN is tough, but let's face it, you can't afk tank on it like a PLD or PUP.

I don't think anyone is arguing about RUN being bad at taking magic damage here though, even at 0 jp I can't think of any mob that nukes with multi-element that's extremely dangerous to a point to affect our decision when choosing tanks.

When we started comparing jobs pages back the entire argument of RUN's weakness was all about it has less room for error for tank/healer/support players.(which is something most ppl would agree on)

But for some reason it turned into a bunch of shitstorm like almost every other job comparison discussions in FFXI. You're not allowed to point out a job's weakness on FFXI forums, because it's just not possible to have an objective discussion about jobs in this game. /looks at BST balance thread and reisen T4 WAR v.s THF thread.

The main problem comes from forums, people brag how good a job is, look at blu and bst, then people join the bandwagon just to find out is not that easy, jobs require excelent gear, jp's AND skill. Average banwagon guy will trash that job and blame others.

Biggest "downside" I see to bandwagoners is, as previously stated, you can't just set it and forget it, so to speak.
You're always doing something on RUN, much like DNC. (And that's why they're both really fun for me.)
Reapplying runes, reapplying buffs, embolden regen, pulse, val--, rayke, gambit, using a WS, swipe+lunging... Etc

That's also something else I've noticed about RUN JPs, that enhancing duration buff lets you calm your *** slightly and breath a bit more than with 0.
At least with regards to buffs.
If they add a JA that lets you put up 3 runes of one elements on a 5min timer (basically "afterlunge"), then RUN would be even less busy of a job.

I wonder if I'm the only one who just Seigan tanks everything

I agree JPs on RUN make a massive difference, but let's not get into the mentality of "2100 or I'm not inviting you to tank my (D) Leviathan!"
Once you start with that mentality, it's a very fast route to get there...

For instance I tanked (and killed!) 17 people Kouryu with me having less than 1000 JPs and no augmented Aettir several times.
All of our kills had been done with me being on RUN back then.


Now if we're talking about uber hard stuff it might be different. Kouryu wain't easy stuff but he ain't super hard either, but still, just saying, while those JPs do make a huge difference, RUN is a pretty nice job even before them :)

Ogma's Cape
DEF:18 "Inquartata"+3 "Vallation" and "Valiance" effect duration +15

With Runeist Coat/+1 and JPs, that's a total of +50 seconds to Valiance/Vallation.

Speculation:

There are three items used to augment new gear. Given the, uh... dearth of items in this update sans capes, I'm assuming capes are augmentable. Patch notes imply that you can use all three items on one piece for three total augments.

Notable thread augments: hp+60, base stat+20
Notable dust augments: acc/attack+20, macc/mdmg+20, eva/meva+20
Notable sap augments: wsd, critdmg, stp, da, dw, enmity+, mab, fc, curepot... all +10

I understood it as 1 of the 3, but I hope you're right.