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For the Shinies! A Guide for Thief
 Fenrir.Magi
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 203
By Fenrir.Magi 2014-12-31 16:37:16
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »Izhiikoh is far from "mediocre" Vajra is not as broken as people think, the bonuses don't work the way they're written, so it's a little lackluster.
Everyone assumes that the +30% would be added to the total damage, aka: if an Izhiikoh THF does a 30k rudra, the Vajra THF does the same Rudra and gets a 10k Bonus, this is far from true.
OK I probably worded that wrong, Izzi is probably one of the top 3 daggers mainhand atm (Mythic, Empy being ahead?), but I was more referring to my THF in general, typical cookie cutter Rudra bandwagon etc. I bet I can still put out similar darkness numbers with a Sandung mainhand, though.
Quetzalcoatl.Mckenzee
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 83
By Quetzalcoatl.Mckenzee 2014-12-31 16:37:44
From what I could tell doing some testing helping valli, the +30% is applied to the multiplier on sneak attack, so instead of applying to the overall damage, it applies to the bonus damage.
IE on rabbits in ronfuare, regular hits for 200-250, crits came up around 405 +-10
SA regular attacks were roughly 950 with atoyac, which has similar base damage to vaj
SA regular swing with vaj was running 1100+
the sneak attack bonus was roughly 125-135% on top of the 405ish crit damage, the vajra then increases that by another 30%, netting an additional 30% to what seemed to be the base crit hit.
these numbers are just eyeballed, but overall vajra seemed to be 15% increase in overal damage +-3% to sneak or trick.
Additionally interesting, Valli and I are confused by the overall fact that during situations where SATA stack successfully, the overall bonus seems to be capping and the full effect of SATA isn't procing. More testing would be required to see if it does cap and to nail down some numbers.
By Pantafernando 2014-12-31 16:38:17
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »If they worked the way they're written, they would be. You don't have it, so you don't know how it works. Have you ever even seen aa Vajra?
My Rudras with Izhiikoh are very close to Vajra. That shouldn't be the case with +30%. But it is.
I already wrote all this ***in another thread. No point bringing it all up again, the bottom line is, it's still a sweet weapon, it's just disappointing.
You can always toss it.
Quetzalcoatl.Valli
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1420
By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2014-12-31 16:51:36
The bonus capping on a true mythic SATA WS sounds depressing : /
Exactly, it's REALLY depressing. Again, don't get me wrong it's still hot, its just not AS HOT, as I thought it was going to be.
By Heimdel 2014-12-31 18:03:17
You must be behind a party or alliance member. The hate you generate fromthat one swing or WS will be transferred to the person you are behind.
If it's a multi-hit WS only the first hit of the ws is transferred. -Edited out pt member only Ya but when i'm behind a person I ge tthe dmg bonus but still end up hate even when it is just TA by itself. I've tried standing in all kinds of spots but still seem get hate.
Quetzalcoatl.Valli
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1420
By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2014-12-31 18:09:54
Because trick attack doesn't do anything for enmity. It takes that SINGLE hit and gives that enmity to the target. If you were capped before you tricked, congrats, you're still capped.
By Heimdel 2014-12-31 18:11:53
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »Because trick attack doesn't do anything for enmity. It takes that SINGLE hit and gives that enmity to the target. If you were capped before you tricked, congrats, you're still capped.
Thank you that is what I needed to know. So basically TA is worthless for placing hate by a thf doing any actual melleeing.
[+]
By Ulthakptah 2014-12-31 18:23:59
Well it helps because it caps that particular victim's hate. When they are at cap the mob will turn to whomever hits it last. Lately I have been disengaging for a second then using gearswap to hit before engaging.
By NeboJones 2014-12-31 18:32:42
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »What a douche. It's like he is trying to get rudra nerfed
Related: I'm too lazy (and don't care) or I'd go do it and get a 99,999.
I wish they would nerf Rudra. All these "thfs" making me sick.
It's not that RUDRA'S is broken, it's that THF OP.
The point is, that it wasn't Wopket, which was the question asked. I'd be interested to know if SA/TA -do- actually bypass the 99% Pierce DT, so I wouldn't have to go SAM to tree anymore.
Yo Valli,
Try to remember the whole community doesn’t hate you and isn't offended by your banter. There are certainly some of us who actually support you and look forward to your post, But dude you have to try and humble yourself. As a THF community we all appreciate this new update and would really like to deflect negative attention.
On a positive note nice damage SS's btw it's motivation. My best so far is 40k WS 78k SC on Woh Gate Hippo (Mandau). "Work in progress"
To be fair though, both of these WS/Sc examples are from mobs that take increased damage. It's not entirely an accurate representation of how "broken" THF or Rudra's storm are.
And Valli has Vajra...which is busted.
I can do that to Largantua with a mediocre Izzhikoh THF, while a decked out SAM typically does 10~20k Fudo 20~30k Light. So yes, Rudra's is broken.
THF can only do that once every ~30 seconds, has to hold tp, deal with positional requirements, and usually needs someone else to do it. SAM can literally spam that 10-20K fudo and light SC solo. I'm not seeing your argument here.
What I do think needs a look is SC mechanics and damage. Like if they wanted to bring back magic damage somehow, make it so that you only got the SC damage if it was MB'ed and have the damage based heavily on the Nuke. Take away solo SC, damage bonuses for different Weapon types, or something.
Specifically RE: Vajra, for Valli, I heard that AM3 can proc on WS. Is this true? If so does it cause significant WS spikes for you?
Quetzalcoatl.Valli
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1420
By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2014-12-31 18:36:34
Specifically RE: Vajra, for Valli, I heard that AM3 can proc on WS. Is this true? If so does it cause significant WS spikes for you?
I've not seen a significant aftermath ws. Mainly because math. Multi attacks on Rudra may as well be non-existant.
Even stacking Assassin's charge is not a significant increase.
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2255
By Odin.Llewelyn 2014-12-31 18:44:36
I heard that AM3 can proc on WS. Is this true? If so does it cause significant WS spikes AM3 can only proc on the first hit of a WS, and the most you'll see is a Triple Attack proc, which THF is already capable of, meaning AM3 won't make you see numbers you wouldn't normally see without it active. It'll just make those TA WS numbers appear a bit more commonly.
[+]
Quetzalcoatl.Valli
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1420
By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2014-12-31 18:45:24
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »Specifically RE: Vajra, for Valli, I heard that AM3 can proc on WS. Is this true? If so does it cause significant WS spikes for you?
I've not seen a significant aftermath ws. Mainly because math. Multi attacks on Rudra may as well be non-existant.
Even stacking Assassin's charge is not a significant increase. I bet if you were single wielding a one hit ws it would.
It's more about the first hit being TWENTY *** f tp... and the additional attacks are still a measly 1.0
Fenrir.Magi
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 203
By Fenrir.Magi 2014-12-31 20:13:52
NeboJones said: THF can only do that once every ~30 seconds, has to hold tp, deal with positional requirements, and usually needs someone else to do it. SAM can literally spam that 10-20K fudo and light SC solo. I'm not seeing your argument here.
You do realize the instance we're talking about here is WS dmg on Largantua, right? Does it even matter when the mob dies to one SC? I was never comparing THF to any other jobs as a DD...well except for SAM, I'd like to see you kill Largantua with a one step SC. You could probably kill it if you're lucky to do a 3 step light before it stuns you.
By Heimdel 2015-01-01 09:26:32
NeboJones said: THF can only do that once every ~30 seconds, has to hold tp, deal with positional requirements, and usually needs someone else to do it. SAM can literally spam that 10-20K fudo and light SC solo. I'm not seeing your argument here.
You do realize the instance we're talking about here is WS dmg on Largantua, right? Does it even matter when the mob dies to one SC? I was never comparing THF to any other jobs as a DD...well except for SAM, I'd like to see you kill Largantua with a one step SC. You could probably kill it if you're lucky to do a 3 step light before it stuns you. I went into toji delve as thf and outdamged well geared experienced sam and mnk by a far margian.
By Heimdel 2015-01-01 09:27:22
What wses chain with rudra to make dark or if can light? Also same for avatars and their ne wskill chain propertys.
By Pantafernando 2015-01-01 09:37:32
Rana, shattersoul, wildfire, asuran fists, blade hi, leaden salute, stardiver, mercy stroke, evisceration. Any ws with gravitation property (rudras has distortion). If skillchaining rudra with gravitation, you can close with another rudra for double darkness.
Rudra cant do light. Only ws to do light with dagger is mandalic stab.
Fudo, vs belongs to light side of force. Rudra to darkness side.
By Heimdel 2015-01-01 09:39:30
Ah I know I've done it wiht others but never seem to catch exactly which wses.
By NeboJones 2015-01-01 10:05:47
Rudra cant do light. Only ws to do light with dagger is mandalic stab.
It's been a long time since those days but I seem to remember closing light with Shark Bite too but I haven't touched it since the update.
Not sure it'd be worth it now unless you didn't have Man Stab and NEEDED a ligh SC for some reason
By NeboJones 2015-01-01 10:14:05
I was never comparing THF to any other jobs as a DD...well except for SAM
A statement like "Rudra is OP because of X" is a direct comparison to all DD's, really. It can't be OP in and of itself. It can only be OP relative to other DD's.
By Pantafernando 2015-01-01 10:35:38
Rudra cant do light. Only ws to do light with dagger is mandalic stab.
It's been a long time since those days but I seem to remember closing light with Shark Bite too but I haven't touched it since the update.
Not sure it'd be worth it now unless you didn't have Man Stab and NEEDED a ligh SC for some reason
Yeah, i actually mistake when once i was duoing with a mnk, the only dagger ws to skillchain light with vs is mandalic, but its false thats only ws to make light with dagger. Shark bite and exenterator have fragmentation. Mandalic has fusion. If you have another source of fusion, you can make light with exe and shark bite. If you have frag, only mandalic will do light.
By Heimdel 2015-01-01 10:37:02
Was asking which chains rudra can close.
By Pantafernando 2015-01-01 10:46:24
Was asking which chains rudra can close.
Any ws with gravitation and/or darkness properties. If the ws has gravitation, you can go one step further with another rudra.
http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Gravitation
http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Darkness
By Heimdel 2015-01-01 10:50:37
Well guess I found a program that does have empy wses http://www.ffxicalculator.com/.
Bismarck.Inference
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 417
By Bismarck.Inference 2015-01-01 10:52:30
By Heimdel 2015-01-01 11:00:43
Dead link
Fenrir.Magi
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 203
By Fenrir.Magi 2015-01-01 14:05:31
I was never comparing THF to any other jobs as a DD...well except for SAM
A statement like "Rudra is OP because of X" is a direct comparison to all DD's, really. It can't be OP in and of itself. It can only be OP relative to other DD's.
All I said, in comparison to SAMs at Largantua in my experience, was that Rudra's was broken.. I've never said it THF was better than SAM or any other job for that matter, EXCEPT that I was able to kill this specific NM with one skillchain. Get over yourself, I haven't even posted a single Rudra's screenshot... no reason to get all defensive about anything.
Quetzalcoatl.Valli
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1420
By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2015-01-01 17:12:33
Rudra cant do light. Only ws to do light with dagger is mandalic stab. Not sure it'd be worth it now unless you didn't have Man Stab and NEEDED a ligh SC for some reason
Stab is kinda just as broken as Rudra, but skillchain damage is straight up absurd. Check these out, highest t2 skillchains I've ever seen @_@ If you can close a skillchain, close it, it doesn't matter what it makes.
I was never comparing THF to any other jobs as a DD...well except for SAM
A statement like "Rudra is OP because of X" is a direct comparison to all DD's, really. It can't be OP in and of itself. It can only be OP relative to other DD's. Not entirely true, it's broken compared to what it used to be, without comparing it to anything else, it's OP. No doubt.
Like 95% of my huge rudras are with zero buffs. No other (non dagger)job can even pretend to do 20k 30k 40k ws's without any buffs at all. (SA/TA aren't buffs, they're extra ws modifiers~).
Fenrir.Magi
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 203
By Fenrir.Magi 2015-01-01 17:33:46
Those are some high level 2 SCs, nearly mirroring your WS damage.
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