For The Shinies! A Guide For Thief

Goin back to TH8 (TH5 in gear) builds, Melphina rightfully reminded me about the TH+1 egg, to be used in place of augmented Sandung because using that in place of your usual Ammo and then have the OH slot free, represents a lower DPS loss, that's of course totally true.
But the same applies to Perfect Taming Sari OH as well.
So just like Sandung is no longer relevant not even as a compromise, we can say the same thing for Perfect Sari, which normally is much better than Sandung.

I guess Perfect Sari OH still has a place in specific Meva or DT builds, since using the egg locks out Yamarang or the Sachet+1, both are pretty valuable options in DT or Meva builds, I suppose?

Also very notable that the egg is all jobs, so has a lot more overall utility than a dagger that's limited to THF/BRD/DNC (or a THF-only Sandung).

You could still want to equip more than TH+5 in gear though, in an effort to increase TH proc-up rate. So that's arguably still a use for Sari, Sandung, other DM-aug gear, Chaac Belt, Empy feet, whatever... Waitin' for that Empy +3 TH+4 feet to pair with Relic TH+4 hands and Egg ;)

There was nothing snippy about it; at least not intentionally. If you perceived my tone as such then I will offer an apology. It's difficult to discern tone and meaning online when all you have is text to work with. I just make a conscious effort to keep my posts short and to the point whenever I can. I used to have a habit of writing walls of text where a single paragraph would suffice, and as I've matured I've tried to refine my writing style accordingly. So once again, sorry.

On point though, I did see the difference in the daggers, but what you're asking is for two separate comparisons. The dagger selection and the ring are independent of one another. Ternion +1 is a better offhand than perfect sari regardless which ring you use. Whether you're using gere ring, or karieyh ring +1 the ternion +1 will always be a better choice if all you want to do is maximize DPS. Perfect sari is useful if you want to build a TH +8 build with just the upgraded relic gloves and another source of TH +1 , but as I said in my post about halfway down the previous page ternion +1 is the best offhand to use for accuracy relevant situations, and in the case of Mandau it's the strongest dps offhand PERIOD because mercy stroke has no TP bonus, so cento offers nothing and no other offhand is as strong as ternion +1 in terms of pure DPS stats. That leaves just the ring choice, and as I said, I'd use the gere over karieyh +1. Likewise I mentioned kentarch belt +1 simply because I saw a clear upgrade in your build and figured you overlooked it. It's easy to do if you don't know about the item beforehand since the relevant augment stats are on the item page and don't show up on the list if you just filter the BG wiki armor page by item type.


This isn't quite as simple of a comparison, because in a similar fashion as my above argument, what you're really asking for is a comparison of the difference between perfect sari offhand versus ternion +1, and perfect lucky egg versus Aurgelmir Orb +1 (or normal quality if relevant). Because ammo swaps are a thing, you can use yetshila +1 for your sa/ta rudras and orb for unstacked rudras without issue, so the question is which is better to sacrifice: ternion offhand or aurgemir orb +1?

Simon offered some insights on the previous page when he compared twashter/ternion in full DPS gear versus twashter/ternion in 5/5 malignance, but his comparison was between different TP armor builds and not different dagger builds. Perfect sari isn't as good as ternion +1, but it's still a strong contender. I'm not actually sure which of the two substitutions is a bigger loss of overall dps. Anyone care to run some numbers through a spreadsheet? For brevity use aurgelmir orb +1 against the egg since that actually is our strongest DPS ammo. If the comparison between egg and orb +1 versus ternion against sari favors the orb +1 to egg swap then I will concede that perfect sari is no longer an optimal BiS piece in the most desirable TH builds.

Answers to your question:
Loosing ammo is more dps than switching Ternion to Taming. EDIT: This sounds unclear, so more clear - Ternion without ammo is higher DPS than Taming with Ammo.

Answer to question you havent asked:
In max damage TP set Aurgelmir Orb +1 is not bis TP ammo for Twashtar/Ternion+1. Yetshila +1 is bis. Also Crit rate on back is better than store TP and Odr earring is better than Dedition. Its seems to be also the truth for 5/5 Malignance, but only with Samurai roll.

Bonus fact that is not useful for anything now:
Air Knife is like +2% overall dps over Ternion +1 as offhand for Twashtar and thats without counting additional wind damage on swings, because idk how much it will do.

I suspected that would be the case with the ammo, and it doesn't surprise me. I appreciate getting some numbers to back it up though. So the best fulltime treasure hunter combo is now Plunderer's Armlets +3 paired with Perfect Lucky egg, and taming sari has finally been dethroned in favor of ternion +1 offhand for that build.



So you're saying the loss of weaponskill frequency/damage is compensated for by the increase in white damage? I can believe it if that's what you're saying, because I know just how strong Twashter's white damage is. With that in mind am I right to say that Twashter's optimal max damage tp build would be this, with critical hit rate on the cape?

ItemSet 342123

And just out of curiosity, how does that stack up against centovente offhand when you know accuracy is going to be capped. Is ternion +1 actually stronger here or does cento still hold its lead? That crit synergy coupled with the triple attack rate and damage bonus is rightfully insane.

EDIT: To quantify the synergies, we're looking at a build with the following

59% Triple attack rate
41% Triple attack damage bonus
47% Critical hit rate
45% Critical hit damage bonus

and adding in twashter's 50% Triple damage bonus with aftermath 3 up. With ternion +1's extremely low delay, base attack speed is way up from the slower offhand choices, meaning white damage goes through the roof.

Yeah this is this exactly that build. Odr is actually break even with Dedition earring, but its assuming acc/att is still capped with Dedition and 10dex on Odr doesnt affect dDEX. Its also with standard Sam/chaos rolls and capped acc/att (Without Samurai roll, all the pieces I mentioned still pull ahead, beside Odr earring which is very slightly behind, but the difference is less than 0.1%). According to sheet its also the best to aim for around 1550TP (+moonshade).

Centovente offhand is still 9% DPS ahead, assuming you change to WS asap above 1000TP. Dedition earring is also better with Centovente. Crit on cape and Yetshila+1 still win, but with lesser difference.

Pretty sure sheet doesnt also take into account skillchain damage, so if you self skillchain with Rudra>Rudra, damage will split more than normal towards WS/SC and all those pieces favoring white damage might no longer be optimal.

I overlooked the 8 crit damage from gifts. I went back and fixed that now that you pointed it out. Thanks for the spot. And yes, it's just an assumption that crit rate is going to be capped here. I have 429 dex in that set without any form of buffs, which means a capped crit rate on mobs with as much as 379 agility. Do mobs that have 380 or more agility exist? Maybe, but if they do they're extremely rare. The only category of mobs with that much agi would be something like dynamis wave 3 Su5 ninja and thief NMs, or some mega evasive high tier NM, but apart from that it's not realistic. I keep personal tabs on my general stats after most content I do and my crit rate is always right on the cap, with the occasional percent or two over and under due to sample size and variance. For all intents and purposes, you can just assume capped cit rate on content with this set because that's actually going to be the case 99% of the time. Thief gets so much dex it's kind of silly.

I doubt they're that rare. 139 apex bats have ~388 agility, which should be WAR/WAR mobs. NMs are going to have more as well.

i'd been using that set without odr and yetshila, making the swap now for lowacc. thanks!

TP cape still STP or go full on Crit rate?

Probably depends what the rest of your tp set is. If I feel I'm unlikely to die I use the above set Simon posted. Often I use twash main hand and that set is really strong white damage. In hybrid / malignance set I don't think it would be worth having crit on the cape since that isn't the focus of that set, but I don't know what would be best there. Maybe at that point having a DA cape would have value but I haven't dedicated inventory to that and still use my normal crit cape. Lord knows I carry enough capes already (*** you rng).

Store TP +10 would probably be the better choice for a 5/5 malignance build, and I think Aurgelmir Orb +1 and telos earring are probably right for that as well. Malignance is all about survival with high weaponskill frequency and power. That build shifts the damage ratio from white to weaponskill, while the max dps build simon posted shifts the ratio in the other direction. Consequently, it might also be right to put 30 strength on the store TP +10 cape, but that's debatable. While there may be some mobs that we won't cap our dex on, there are far more we won't be capped on strength. Plus, once you add party buffs for the situation you're in we usually end up overcapping accuracy, and 30 strength is 7.5 base damage and 30 attack. That fits into the malignanace hybrid very well. The max dps build definately wants 30 dex on the cape though, which is fine because that's also our evisceration cape so we'd be building it that way anyway.

But in that TP set of your's above, Melphina? Crit?

Yes, that set above would be crit. I'll post both with augs and basic summary for brevity.

Max damage TP set
ItemSet 342123

Cape augment -- 30 dex, 10% crit rate, 20 accuracy/20 attack, -10% physical damage taken (This is also my evisceration cape)

This is the "max damage" TP build and it shifts the damage ratio towards higher white damage, but slightly lower weaponskill output. The loss of weaponskill damage is compensated by the increase in white damage for a net positive in overall dps.

-DT Hybrid set
ItemSet 369740

Cape Augment -- 30 strength OR 30 dex (Your choice, I think both are acceptable here), store tp + 10, 20 accuracy/20 attack, -10% Physical damage taken

This is my hybrid set. All you need to cap out both 50% PDT and 50% MDT is 5/5 malignance, the 2 rings, -10% PdT on the cape, and shell V. That frees up the remaining accessories for DPS purposes. This build loses a large chunk of triple attack and crit synergy over the previous one so white damage is going to be inhibited, but it maximizes weaponskill damage and frequency to compensate.

To put the difference in perspective, the first build gets 55 tp per hit, whereas the second build gets 90 tp per hit. The second build has lower white damage and swings a little slower, but it has higher weaponskill output and keeps you alive. You still want your hybrid for stuff where you're likely to die wearing the first set, because thief is squishy and dying repeatedly in the first set cripples damage output far more than swapping to the hybrid and living does.

worth mentioning the max dps set has ~1375 accuracy which is way overkill for most things and like you said you'll probably be in hybrid for things like wave 3.

You still want dex on the cape augment in the max damage set though even with 1375 accuracy because

A:) You really want to cap dDEX on everything possible in this build and..

B:) This is also your evisceration cape, so it's the proper way to build it anyway.

I always eat red curry buns in the first build and depending on buffs and what it is I'm fighting either red curry buns or Grape Daifuku +1 in the second.

The max DPS set also allows you to have enough acc to offhand cento if you so choose for most content provided you have standard buffs. It is a really good set and very fun to use, as long as what your doing is not super dangerous.

I wonder how much DPS you're leaving on the table to use the hybrid set.

Edit; nvm can’t count.

Hybrid sets have never been about maximizing dps. You use them on content where it isn't safe to go glass cannon, because thief is a very squishy class. Wave 3 mobs, omen bosses, high tier resinjima NMs, most very difficult ambuscades, fighting sheol C NMs with a group...stuff like this can one shot you if you pull hate in max dps gear or get AoEd.

The difference between a hybrid set and our glass cannon set used to be huge, but malignance cut the difference tremendously. Rudra's storm is extremely powerful, and spamming higher power weaponskills more frequently is very good damage on hard content. The slow penalty weakness inflicts you with if you die more than offsets the difference between the two gear sets. Plus, more and more end game thiefs are choosing /dragoon as their preferred DD sub job of choice, which makes the hybrid build a necessity when you're looking at one shot situations. It's just a matter of using the appropriate set against the appropriate content.

Also you can easily have multiple tiers of Hybrid to have the right amount of DPS and DT depending on the situation.

Oh yes, I agree. You don't have to sell me on the virtue of hybrid sets. I just am curious how close they are in DPS to better understand the sacrifice.

Dead DPS is Zero DPS, so 500 dps loss is still closer to max, than zero is

You piqued my curiosity now so I went and did a bit of data collection on my last dynamis run. With the holidays upon us our schedule and turnout is altered so rather than full farming wave 2 and 3 we're doing full farm waves 1 and 2 and partial clears of wave 3 until schedules normalize. So rather than swap to my usual -dt set I gave the whole "Max dps" set a shot on wave 3 to see how crit rate was affected on Su5 mobs. Turns out dDEX ISN'T capped on wave 3. After we finished farming waves 1 and 2 I checked my crit rate and the reading was at 43%, and after farming six wave 3 fetter pulls it dropped down to 36% at the end of the run.

I wish I had recorded a bit more specific data though. I noted my crit rate going into wave 3 and only at the end of the run realized I never recorded my number of swings up to that point, so all I know is that my crit rate dropped in wave 3 but I can't measure by how much. To do that I would need to know crit rate going into wave 3 as well as the total swings at that point, then I could separate the final crit rate and total swings at the end of the run and get crit rate for wave 3. But fortunately we're expecting another similar run toward the end of the week, so I'll give it another shot then and pay more attention to detail.

There is still a takeaway from this. Although I don't have specifics for wave 3, I do know that my crit rate going into wave 3 WAS capped, so at the very least the proposed max damage set should cap on dDEX crit rate on mobs up to and including wave 2 dynamis tier threshold. Since that's the tier of mobs we're most likely to use the max D tp setup on in the first place, it's useful to know.

The answer to your question was on the previous page, in the first post that started this subject

Not specific to THF, but do we have a list of mob defense values for end game content (Dynamis / Omen / HELMs / etc.) Even rough values? I've noticed in most spreadsheets, the general DEF values for WoC and Kouryu range from 1900-2100.

Any ideas on Wave 3 Volte + champions? Granted they'll vary based on job I imagine, similar for their evasion.

So I got a chance to collect some extra critical hit rate data in dynamis gearing for maximum dps, and the numbers are pretty interesting. If your dDEX is capped you should expect 47% critical hit rate with the set I posted, which is a sum of the following factors

---5% Base critical hit rate
---5% Merits
---15% dDEX
---22% in gear

I took a screenshot of my crit rate and number of swings after the wave 1 boss, right before the wave 2 boss, right after the wave 2 boss, and at the end of the run. The stats were as follows

--------------------------------------------
After Wave 1 boss died -- 1555 swings; 46.87% critical hit rate

Right before wave 2 boss -- 3549 swings; 40.94% critical hit rate

After wave 2 boss -- 3821 swings; 40.12% critical hit rate

After run ended -- 5504 swings, 38.04% critical hit rate

--------------------------------------------

I spent the entirety of wave 1 in my max damage TP set and just tagged the NMs with TH 8, but for wave 2 I maintained my TH 8 fulltime with the relic gloves and perfect lucky egg swap, which lowers crit rate by 6%. Consequently, my crit rates matched the expected values of 47% and 41% almost too perfectly, and I spent some time building treasure hunter levels on the wave 2 boss before swapping into my -dt set to finish the rest of his health off, which accounts for the small drop in crit rate before and after the wave 2 boss. With that in mind I can say with confidence that my dDEX was capped for the entirety of wave 1 and 2.

Furthermore, by taking the above numbers into account I can separate the wave 3 data from the rest of the parse, which leaves me with the following.

Total swings in wave 3 - 1683
total crits in wave 3 - 561
Wave 3 crit rate == 33.33%

This means that my dDEX is absolutely floored, since the minimum critical hit rate I can expect without dDEX is 32% (5% base crit rate, 5% from merits, and 22% from gear). Ddex crit rate ranges from 0-15%, and from the looks of it my dDEX afforded me 1% crit rate during the entirety of wave 3.

I'm going to make a separate post to keep my theorycrafting and analysis separate from the data I collected. The main takeaway is that the "maximum DPS" TP set really tanks in effective crit rate on mobs with dynamis wave 3 stat lines and beyond, and at that point I think it's more effective to just go with the standard accessory build of Aurgelmir orb +1, store TP + 10 on the cape, and Telos earring. This is also the cutoff point where malignance effectiveness increases and the glass cannon build becomes more of a liability.

The second takeaway is that these numbers also reinforce the notion that it is correct to build our store tp + 10 cape with 30 strength and not 30 dex, provided we can maintain capped accuracy. If the store tp cape is best used with malignance gear or against mobs where you expect dDEX to be floored like this, then 30 dex on the cape is literally just an accuracy increase, and I get so much accuracy from my party buffs on high level targets that coupled with my naturally high accuracy it's largely irrelevant. Having 30 extra strength however is guaranteed to increase fSTR (if dDEX is not capped, theres no way in hell fSTR ever is), and 7.5 base damage and 30 more attack is a very welcome addition to our "higher level mob" tp builds.