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Which Relic Should I Make?: A Guide
Bahamut.Fulgrim
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Posts: 226
By Bahamut.Fulgrim 2013-02-14 16:42:28
I actually wanted Gungnir till I came here :'(
Shattered dreams
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Posts: 2215
By Siren.Thoraeon 2013-02-14 16:43:24
I actually wanted Gungnir till I came here :'(
Shattered dreams This thread is officially a success.
Bismarck.Kelhor
Administrator
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-14 17:00:29
I actually wanted Gungnir till I came here :'(
Shattered dreams This thread is officially a success.
Fenrir.Sylow
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6862
By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-15 01:37:32
Holy ***, Ashman's apocalypse analysis is better than anything I could have ever hoped for.
I'm swamped with implementing a chaotic artificial bee colony algorithm in python at the moment but I'll get the analyses currently available compiled this weekend.
In the mean time, offer feedback!
Bismarck.Amphion
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 27
By Bismarck.Amphion 2013-02-18 10:33:26
Someone with all 3 Great Katanas (Amano/Masa/Koga) should do an Amano write up. Based on what I heard personally, I am pretty sure it will be much more favorable than most think coming from a player that used all three 99 versions of the weapon.
By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-18 10:57:21
Anybody who would put 99 Amano above 99 Koga is not someone whose opinion I'd credit.
[+]
By charlo999 2013-02-18 11:07:13
Excalibur
Comparisons
The most obvious comparison is to Almace. This is the hot button topic of endless debate, so let's go to the Holy Book of Motenten, and see what the (slightly modified for gear that wasn't in it) spreadsheet says:
As an opening caveat, the spreadsheet doesn't account for Excalibur's additional effect. So we use Enlight for both weapons, and ignore the additional effect damage, but allow for Almace's CDC aftermath and Excalibur's relic 2.5 damage hits. We'll compare both 90 and 99 Almace, and 95 and 99 Excalibur.
TP phase
Requiescat with Excalibur
CDC with Almace
Code
| No buffs, fodder | Melee DPS | WS DMG | Cycle DMG | Cycle Time | Total DPS |
+---------------------------+-----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+
| Excalibur (99) | 109.071 | 2212 | 5613 | 2046 | 164.599 |
| Excalibur (95) | 103.343 | 2140 | 5362 | 2046 | 157.257 |
| Almace (99) | 119.615 | 2114 | 5983 | 2121 | 169.299 |
| Almace (90) | 107.344 | 1957 | 5430 | 2121 | 153.638 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| DC Dynamis, capped haste | Melee DPS | WS DMG | Cycle DMG | Cycle Time | Total DPS |
+--------------------------+-----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+
| Excalibur (99) | 210.614 | 1828 | 4650 | 979 | 284.987 |
| Excalibur (95) | 209.541 | 1769 | 4469 | 979 | 273.901 |
| Almace (99) | 224.840 | 1881 | 5007 | 1014 | 296.411 |
| Almace (90) | 204.034 | 1744 | 4580 | 1014 | 271.146 |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
]
possible to get rdm comparison like this?
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By Bismarck.Diablosword 2013-02-18 11:19:35
1) Why is Gugnir the only one with a person attached to it
2) When are you going to start editing the OP with information posted
3) Once this is completed, will be a legendary topic, good work!
Fenrir.Sylow
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Posts: 6862
By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-18 11:24:51
I sort of looked at RDM/NIN Excalibur builds. For outside content, Excalibur (99) / Almace (99) (Gain-STR) seems to be the best one can do. Almace 99 / Shikargar (99)(Gain-DEX) isn't that far behind this setup (-2.15%); however, and is about even with Excalibur (99) / Shikargar (99) (Gain-STR).
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-18 11:26:17
Bismarck.Diablosword said: »1) Why is Gugnir the only one with a person attached to it
2) When are you going to start editing the OP with information posted
3) Once this is completed, will be a legendary topic, good work!
Gungnir doesn't have a person attached to it?
Also it would have been yesterday; however, I had a homework assignment that took me 24 hours longer than expected because I had to wrestle with LaTeX.
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-18 11:31:35
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By Ragnarok.Presidentobama 2013-02-18 11:43:48
Valefor.Prothescar said: »here's my overview of claustrum
(1.) An overview of the weapon.
(a.) It has every strength and no weaknesses.
(b.) This weapon makes you God. There are no downsides.
{c.) It is used in every situation.
(d.) These situations arise every femtosecond.
(e.) This weapon is never outclassed, to speak as such is heresy.
(f.) THis weapon is functional as early as Relic Staff, retaining its usefulness throughout its entire lifespan.
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
(a.) There is no competition for Claustrum. Claustrum is the greatest that there is and ever will be.
(b.) Claustrum is perhaps the only weapon in the game that trumps all other options whenever it has had a full balanced breakfast including a bowl of rice crispies.
(c.) Using french sums, I've devised a system of modeling Claustrum's relative power level. I find the fact that I wouldn't worry about using the best weapon in the game in legion offensive, so I am ignoring that.
Since french sums are so amazingly complex and outside of the bounds of normal human thinking, I've constructed a diagram to show you what I mean instead of typing out the numbers.
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
(a.) You should use this weapon if you want to win the game. There is no genuine situation wherein you would not want to win the game, therefor there is no situation where you should not use Claustrum.
(b.) ATTACK DOWN
This is faulse. I have seen two people with it and they do good work on SMN and blm. And I will write up a review myself in a few weeks as I will have empy and this finished.
Fenrir.Jinjo
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By Fenrir.Jinjo 2013-02-18 11:58:54
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-18 12:04:13
I went ahead and put up the Mandau and Guttler analyses.
The Apocalypse analysis is awesome, but hasn't created any drama yet, so it's apparently not a complete apocalypse analysis.
RDM probably deserves a bit more mention for Excalibur melee RDM is about as viable as PLD at this point, so why the *** not.
There seemed to be some uncertainty around some aspects of Gjallarhorn so I'll hold off until those elements get settled. I have to do some post concatenation for Aegis so that'll come later too.
VIP
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-02-18 12:10:00
Relic and empy staves? Dafuq
Cerberus.Kvazz
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By Cerberus.Kvazz 2013-02-18 12:14:45
Relic and empy staves? Dafuq
Honestly, if I were a pretty serious Summoner, I'd concider Claustrum(assuming I'd make a melee set, which I probably would) :P
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By Ragnarok.Presidentobama 2013-02-18 12:20:17
Relic and empy staves? Dafuq
Honestly, if I were a pretty serious Summoner, I'd concider Claustrum(assuming I'd make a melee set, which I probably would) :P
Bebe has one on rag server. I know and have seen him use it often, as it inspired me to make one.
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-18 12:22:08
Bismarck.Amphion
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By Bismarck.Amphion 2013-02-18 12:27:17
Anybody who would put 99 Amano above 99 Koga is not someone whose opinion I'd credit.
That's fine and it's your opinion, but the person in question has played FFXI since PC launch, has 99 Amano/Masa/Koga/Yoichi for his SAM and many many other Relics and Empys. Has been a part of one of the most prestigious Linkshells in the game's history that accomplished many firsts within this game.
According to this person, most of the time:
Koga wins in Voidwatch.
Amano wins in Neo Salvage, Legion, Dyna and most roaming events.
Paper math always favors Koga but real world application is a lot different.
I don't want to name names but most of you can figure out who this person is. I'd appreciate not posting the name here though since I am not sure whether or not he'll want that attention. If he'd like to post within this thread, we'd all appreciate it though.
Cerberus.Taint
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By Cerberus.Taint 2013-02-18 12:41:58
Anybody who would put 99 Amano above 99 Koga is not someone whose opinion I'd credit.
That's fine and it's your opinion, but the person in question has played FFXI since PC launch, has 99 Amano/Masa/Koga/Yoichi for his SAM and many many other Relics and Empys. Has been a part of one of the most prestigious Linkshells in the game's history that accomplished many firsts within this game.
According to this person, most of the time:
Koga wins in Voidwatch.
Amano wins in Neo Salvage, Legion, Dyna and most roaming events.
Paper math always favors Koga but real world application is a lot different.
I don't want to name names but most of you can figure out who this person is. I'd appreciate not posting the name here though since I am not sure whether or not he'll want that attention. If he'd like to post within this thread, we'd all appreciate it though.
I could see Amano beating Koga in certain situations. But I don't see Amano beating 99 Masa.
[+]
Fenrir.Jinjo
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By Fenrir.Jinjo 2013-02-18 12:50:08
The issue with mythics on paper is that they're penalized more than any other weapon type when dealing with situations not accounted for on spreadsheets (including the fact that you need to be completely focused to take full advantage of Mythic's lead when it's there, or your results will suffer tremendously). You figure out rather quickly where you should be using what. Empyreans are similar, but the disparity is much less drastic.
By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-18 13:06:25
Anybody who would put 99 Amano above 99 Koga is not someone whose opinion I'd credit. That's fine and it's your opinion, but the person in question has played FFXI since PC launch, has 99 Amano/Masa/Koga/Yoichi for his SAM and many many other Relics and Empys. Has been a part of one of the most prestigious Linkshells in the game's history that accomplished many firsts within this game. According to this person, most of the time: Koga wins in Voidwatch. Amano wins in Neo Salvage, Legion, Dyna and most roaming events. Paper math always favors Koga but real world application is a lot different. I don't want to name names but most of you can figure out who this person is. I'd appreciate not posting the name here though since I am not sure whether or not he'll want that attention. If he'd like to post within this thread, we'd all appreciate it though.
The issue is the 3-minute AM on Koga lines up with Meditate, though of course since I don't have it I can't confirm the real-world applications.
I'll be able to discuss this more when I win one from Mog Bonanza.
/swag
(T SYLOW thanks for the caveat re: Ruinator)
[+]
Bismarck.Kelhor
Administrator
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-18 14:12:33
stuff about a magic sword
possible to get rdm comparison like this?
I haven't had any time to really build proper sets/etc, but my guess is that they won't be too far apart. The one difference of note (that Sylow sort of touched on) is that a RDM is more likely to be dual-wielding, whereas a PLD never should be.
tl;dr: I want to, haven't had time, someone else wants to give me numbers I will cheerfully add them in :)
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-18 14:25:08
RDM is like DNC in that it gets to make two 99 ultimate weapons to fully optimize!
Or, you can just make Almace (99) and have it available for its optimal builds on PLD and BLU, sacrificing 2% melee RDM dps outside of Abyssea and coming out on top inside or in Voidwatch.
Additionally, CDC builds can only get better on RDM, sort of like Pyrrhic Kleos crept up for Derpy DNC with the addition of more STR/DEX gear.
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By Bismarck.Diablosword 2013-02-18 14:37:43
Bismarck.Diablosword said: »1) Why is Gungnir the only one with a person attached to it
2) When are you going to start editing the OP with information posted
3) Once this is completed, will be a legendary topic, good work!
Gungnir doesn't have a person attached to it?
Also it would have been yesterday; however, I had a homework assignment that took me 24 hours longer than expected because I had to wrestle with LaTeX.
Gungnir and now G-horn have characters using them, while all the others are just the weapon by itself (which I think looks better). Very minor detail, just inconsistent. Honestly, doesn't matter because it's your guide and you get to do with it what you will. I just think for the sake of uniformity they should all be the same.
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-18 14:39:45
Oh, the reason for that is because I couldn't find equivalent images of Ghorn and Gungnir's models as the rest of them, and decided it wasn't worth it.
By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-18 18:05:36
Also, if you want to be a pedantic supernerd, Apocalypse actually means "The Lifting of the Veil".
Asura.Ccl
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By Asura.Ccl 2013-02-18 18:07:47
Yoichinoyumi: allow sam to be usefull in end game content again !
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By Phoenix.Dramatica 2013-02-18 18:08:25
To be fair, isn't legion the only place you would ever use yoichi on sam over kogarasumaru?
Asura.Ccl
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Posts: 1997
By Asura.Ccl 2013-02-18 18:15:34
Phoenix.Dramatica said: »To be fair, isn't legion the only place you would ever use yoichi on sam over kogarasumaru?
I'd use it any roaming event, at the very least, keeping mythic AM3 in stuff like salvage/dyna farm seems really annoying.
With oat2-4 I'd guess it could pull ahead on vw too since capping ratt shouldn't be out of reach(if you setup toward it, wich is not always doable).
As of now, I only saw it shine in legion.
Dafuq Relic Shud I Maek?
Because every argument has already been made
Now with 30% less Comic Sans!
So, liek, you've burned your Beastmaster to 99 and you're ready to go fight over nightmare mobs in dreamlands Dynamis with the rest of your server. But, you don't know which relic to make? Fortunately, 50 other people made a thread before you and contrary to what you may believe, your situation is not unique.
Aegis
The creepiest relic of them all!
Stuff regarding Aegis goes here.
Amanomurakumo
Sword of the Gathering Clouds of Heaven
Amanomurakumo analysis goes here.
Annihilator
Soon to be banned by Obama
Annihilator analysis goes here.
Apocalypse
The End of the World
Apocalypse analysis goes here.
Bravura
The Virtuoso
Bravura analysis goes here.
Claustrum
The Waste of Currency
Claustrum analysis goes here.
Excalibur
The sword of King Arthur
Excalibur analysis goes here.
Gjallarhorn
The Yelling Horn
Gjallarhorn analysis goes here.
Gungnir
The Swaying One
Luvdisc analysis goes here.
Guttler
The Relic-Maker
SO YOU WANT TO MAKE A GUTTLER by Scaevola
SO YOU WANT TO MAKE A GUTTLER
Overview Guttler, like most relic weapons, is straight damage upgrade. It is BST's highest damage weapon out of realistic options (Aymur might be situationally better? Do we care? Not really!). However, since Guttler obviously represents a massive financial investment you could, at the very least, use on another relic for another job, there are some pretty broad existential questions about game priorities you need to ask yourself that we'll get to in a bit. For now, just keep in mind Guttler is your best damage option for BST.
(a.) Strengths and Weaknesses Guttler's straight damage. Like all one-hand relics, it gives a big attack boost, a choke effect (VIT down) that maybe helps you get a bit closer towards meeting its pretty-impressively-high weapon rank of 9 (at 95+), and even though Onslaught is unfortunately fairly bad even by relic WS standards (doubly unfortunate because the aftermath is actually pretty awesome as relic AMs go, but the 20 second duration for 100 TP is never going to get you to another WS on BST so you don't really get the opportunity to mix up Onslaught and Ruinator), Guttler lends itself well to spamming Ruinator, which is arguably the best WS in the game considered independently of weapon type.
(b.) Does this weapon fundamentally alter or create roles for the job? The downside (other than Ruinator eclipsing Onslaught) is that it is a weapon for BST, and while it's the best a BST can do, you're ultimately going to run into the scaling issues that give BST so much trouble on higher-end content. Guttler DOES NOT change the game for a BST. But again, you're a BST, so if you have the right attitude and are playing to your strengths you shouldn't necessarily care about that.
(c.) In what situations is the weapon used? You'll make good use of Guttler in any situation where you'll melee as BST.
(d.) How frequent do these situations arise? These situations arise quite a bit more often than people seem to think. Snarl is pretty great, and since you're likely subbing DNC or NIN for DW, in either case you have some tool to mitigate much of the AoE damage you could potentially suffer on a larger NM.
(e.) In what situations is the weapon trumped by another option and how frequently do these situations occur? In such situations, Guttler's going to come out on top every time. The most common competitors I see mentioned are DA or Fire magian axes, and Guttler is a clear upgrade from those (and has a HUGE delay advantage over the DA, I might add).
(f.) Is the weapon still functional when not fully upgraded (lv95) Since Onslaught's not very good, I personally don't think Guttler gains much from going past 95; 99, notably, does not gain a weapon rank. Obviously 99 is better, but not nearly as much as with relics whose WSes are actually "good".
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
(a.) What are the weapon's major competitors? Guttler doesn't really have any meaningful competition for BST specifically, unless we're counting mythics, and we're not because fuck you. Farsha is bad because Cloudsplitter is bad and Empyreans live or die by their WSes. The real competition is a relic for another job that would be more competitive in a group setting.
(b.) When is this weapon superior to its major competitors? ...which brings us to the central soul-searching question you need to ask yourself as a BST interested in Guttler: are the various EP-to-EM-related mulchfests I wail on as BST important enough to me personally to invest in a Guttler over something like Ragnarok or Annihilator that would help me in a large group? This is not a simple question of job loyalty, mind you; Gungnir is bad because DRG is bad, and DRG is bad because it's heavily outstripped by other jobs in everything it does. BST, OTOH, is the undisputed king of what IT does, and you would never question making, say, an Ukonvasara for a WAR that was your best option for the content to which you brought it. In fact, you could say it's even greater than that, because, say, a 10% damage increase in the solo situations that BST finds itself translates into much greater results than an equivalent output increase in a situation where you have 17 other people to fall back on.
I'm not necessarily saying you should make a Guttler. All I'm saying is that the answer to this, maybe more than any other relic, is one that only you yourself can really provide.
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
(a.) When is or isn't this the weapon for you? Guttler obviously might be for you if you love the shit out of the flexibility and independence BST provides. The master is not by any means a weak partner in the relationship between master and pet, and Ruinator is quite easy to build up to genuinely impressive levels. But it IS a substantial investment, and is not going to make your BST anything other than a BST.
On the upshot, you can use it to make another relic that much quicker! It pays for itself (if you have a year to blow in Dynamis)!
Are there any other considerations? Also, not for nothing, Guttler is a 10,000 shell relic and will thus in the current economy be substantially cheaper than other options.
Kikoku
Demon Wail
Kikoku analysis goes here.
Mandau
The Headhunter
Mandau Analysis provided by Byrth
(1.) Overview
Mandau gives access to Mercy Stroke. It is D55/175 Delay and has 13.33% Triple Damage proc rate on the first swing of each round that uses it. It also has a 10 Damage/tick en-poison.
Mercy Stroke is 3.0 fTP and 60% STR. Using it with Mandau will give you a Critical Hit Rate +5% aftermath (both hands) that lasts for 20~60 seconds at 100~300TP.
Benefits: This weapon substantially boosts Attack (which dagger jobs need) and gives access to a good SA/TA WS for THF. It can be main-handed in all situations, except perhaps when you are evasion tanking something so incredibly accurate that you need to use two AGI Thokchas. There is no time when another weapon is a better for damage.
Weaknesses: This weapon has no specific weaknesses and does not create a fundamentally unique role for the job. Also, Mandau is one of the few weapons that benefits majorly from the upgrade to 99.
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
Competitors: Twashtar (BRD and THF), Almace (RDM)
Mandau is superior to Twashtar almost all of the time at level 99, and level 95 Mandau is superior to level <90 Twashtar all the time. Twashtar's major advantage is its 20 DEX, which may change your dDEX crit rate if you aren't already capped. This is a non-issue if you offhand Twashtar, though, which is ideal.
Mandau is never superior to Almace for RDM.
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
You should not choose this weapon if your goal is to do epeen awesome damage and win all the parses against heavy DDs. Mandau is a very good weapon, but it does not make THF into a heavy DD. It makes good THF better than bad DDs.
You should choose this weapon if your goal is to improve your THF's damage in the situations where you use it already. Thief is primarily used for Treasure Hunter, and as a result it is used very frequently. The events where you use THF will be faster and smoother if you are using Mandau, and that should be your motivation for getting this weapon.
As far as other considerations, you need to take Mandau to 99 for it to really shine. The last +15% Mercy Stroke damage opens up new ways to use the WS.
When offhanding with 27% DA (/WAR) and 14% TA:
Mercy Stroke - 2 hits base, 1.4*(4 fTP + 0.1 Gorget + MultiAttack Rate*2) = 7.17 fTP - Gets about D+85 from 60% STR
(55+85+14)*7.17 = 1082.6
Exenterator - 5 hits base, 5 fTP + MultiAttack Rate*2 = 6.02 fTP - Gets about D+140 from 100% AGI
(55+140+14)*6.02 = 1258.2
You will likely cap fSTR in each case. Mercy Stroke has more STR (and thus Attack) than Exenterator, but Exenterator has an unverified 5% Attack boost associated with it so you can sort of call it a wash. Exenterator also will hit the round-cap if you TA twice, while Mercy Stroke will not. This is not corrected for.
So Exenterator will do <14% more damage unstacked, but you get an extra 5% crit rate for up to 60 seconds after Mercy Stroke so it might be worth using uncapped if you have high TP outside Abyssea. Note that this is just napkin math and some claim the difference is even smaller than this. Exenterator doesn't benefit from TP.
Mjöllnir
The Crusher
Mjöllnir analysis goes here.
Ragnarok
The Fate of the Divine
Ragnarok analysis goes here.
Spharai
The Spheres
Spharai analysis goes here.
Yoichinoyumi
The Fan-Splitter
Yoichinoyumi analysis goes here.[/div]
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