Which Relic Should I Make?: A Guide

Its all perspective in the end i guess, i dont play in end game LS's nor do i have the desire to, no time and really no urge to. I just sign in now prat about do some stuff and log out, gone are my days of 10hr events per day....

Literally we have like 4 people in the LS im in now with 2 mules making the 6 lol. Thats it, but thats enough to do what we need to do. I cant solo ok let me correct that, i wont solo dyna, id rather hang myself. so if its done its done a as group thing. And seeing how the group i use to be with (around 10 people) is off line no longer plays or just are not interested in Dyna, yeah that route is harder than it seems especially with my limited play time. When i made the comment id rather build a new relic, it was a rhetorical statement. I couldnt build a new relic even if i wanted to lol. Heck im too lazy to build pop sets for Chloris just because i dont wanna put people through that agony....

Sorry if my comment came across as absurd earlier, but the point i was making was for some the 99 is not in reach and maybe even if a side note, the most common combination should also be compared.


Many thanks
CP

Updated the page 3 post with better gearsets, and multiple sword levels. Thanks to Austar for pointing out my mathematical errors, and everyone who suggested comparing the other versions of the weapon/had set ideas.

The results don't really change. 95 Excalibur beats 90 Almace, but it's by a hair. 99 Almace wins fairly easily, and the gap increases with more and more buffs.

Oh *** that's cheap, didn't expect that.

Totally worth grinding a few Dynamis...

For sure if you're a true bard, Harp > horn... Just need to cast the 3/4 fake songs then recast on your +3 instruments(lol duration if you cant recast them @ right time).

I just started Horn, first reason.. Inventory, 'cox my main goal is just to 95 it, I did "start" w/ souls but after almost 30 pops and 0 upgrades.. that ***is not fun at all...


A good reason, no luck w/ souls?

*

PS: i work 8-5 EST so im working on my assessment now :<

Back to Aegis for a moment, personally, I almost exclusively use Aegis for anything you can get away with either shield such as VW due to fanatic's drinks, (swap in ochain if the staggers and DD suck *** and it takes them 27.5mins to kill *** Qilin or something,) abyssea, 75 content, but I almost always have my whm mule with me to make up the extra bit of damage I would take in cures for anything listed above.

Legion is the big one where I use both, sure you can get away with a maple shield or something if you merited flee to outrun the gallu in Mul, but as far as supertanking the first four chambers the corse is the only thing that kind of stands a chance of *** you up for a t1 mob where Aegis swaps are very nice, a few of the t2s fall into that category as well. It's quite doable with Ochain for lower chambers, just swapping Aegis into your MDT macro and Ochain into the PDT macro makes it a easier.

For Mul, I exclusively use Aegis for t1/t2 and go back to shield swapping for the Gallu because I don't feel like racing him. For a PLD without Aegis in Hall of Mul, I have not seen another PLD go without an infinite supply of them powder boots+1 so I cannot exactly comment on its usefulness there. As for anywhere else, only having one of the two shields is usually fine. Ochain should be more than enough to get you through whatever you're doing on PLD.

tl;dr: i use both shields in legion, and aegis outside of legion unless the situation specifically requires otherwise.

Won't amend the original post about it with this for now as I'm sure someone might have some feedback about a normal speed Ochain only PLD for Mul. Again, I would imagine it's doable, just Aegis makes it smoother.

Life got so much easier for me when I got Aegis. I think some people really don't know that it actually blocks more damage per block, just at a (potentially) lower rate than Ochain. If your block rate is capped (or even sort of close), Aegis wins easily, even for physical damage. Buffs like Reprisal and Palisade help a lot.

Why choose, spend all of your $$$ on gilz and get all of them... Only then can you win the game.

even though i havent quite finished the trials to get it to 95 yet i made a Guttler cuz when i first got into a dyna shell bst was my only 75 and back then i was pretty focused on it. it was a weapon i wanted and i personally dont care about anything else =D

Is there a process to cancelling a relic to start a different one?

I started a Gungnir a while ago, then the next day after I turned in the first stage I got a Herja's Fork.

I don't really have a new Relic in mind yet, but thinking ahead I doubt I will finish this one.

Do I even need to cancel it or can I make more than one at a time and just shelf this for now?

As long as you finish the stage you're currently at, and get the weapon off the goblin, you're free to do whatever stage of whatever other weapon, I belive.

I have a Dynamis Dagger from when I started Mandau, then changed my mind and started doing Anni. You can just leave it in your storage forever.

Is this substantiated anywhere?

Pretty sure I saw it in one of Martel's tests. I've always heard it to be true and anecdotal evidence has never shown me anything to dispute it (anecdotal evidence in practice seems to confirm it), but now I want to go find the actual data again, just to be sure.

What % does Ochain block anyway? Vanilla-Wiki says 75% on Aegis but I don't know if that's reliable or not.

Vanilla Wiki sounds like a cocktail, I'll take some thanks.

The Martel test I remembered

He's mostly testing Shield Defense Bonus here, and he's comparing Ochain 90 to Aegis 95, but it's pretty clear from the data that Aegis blocks more per hit.

The tl;dr - Aegis is 55% damage reduction, plus another 20% from having 40 DEF. Ochain is 40, plus 20 from 40 DEF. So ultimately, 75% vs 60%, assuming you aren't level synced (which is why the DEF is important to consider).

Neat, learned something new! Thanks for the source.

I made Gjallarhorn first and then decided to make the harp. Honestly I don't think there is a 'right' order for making the two instruments. For me, the inventory allowed me to carry some extra gear to improve other facets of the job (ie: more Fast Cast, Cure Potency, PDT/MDT). Harp gives you more songs at the same potency while horn gives you higher potency with no extra song slot.

+4/5 to Scherzo is no joke, especially if you do Legion. Not only does it up the level of activation, but it also saves you the headache of it wearing off before your other songs.

Which brings me to another point: if you're on the fence between the two and do a group static event like Legion, see what your other BRD has before deciding which to work on first. In the shell I am in, our other BRD had 99 harp and the +3 instruments while I had the 99 horn and 90 harp. Her songs would wear before mine due to the increased duration from the +5 songs. A minor headache, but it effectively nullified the duration bonus from my horn. This became more obvious once I finished the +1 marduk legs. Just something to keep in mind for when you're swapping parties.

You must've had the good fortune of catching one below 8 figures then. I'm just grateful my 99 upgrade didn't cost anything.

i'd imagine it's the same as our server, more people wanting the piece of the pie and ganking each other in selling marrows it's starting to flood over.


I'd like to give a partial(although I'm sure it'll suffice) analysis of Claustrum later.

When you give your weapon to the Goblin, you have to finish the current stage you traded it for.

When you finish said stage, you can trade in another weapon without issue.

I am currently upgrading both Ragnarok and Apocalypse. My Ragnarok just finished stage 4, I retrieved it from the Goblin and traded in my stage 3 Apocalypse. So, finishing the current stage your weapon is traded in for is the only limitation, and it cannot be canceled in any way.

I can get behind trying to keep your songs the same relative durations, but I haven't heard anything about +Scherzo affecting the "level of activation." My understanding is that if an attack is going to do >75% of your HP, Scherzo reduces that damage by approximately half. +Scherzo on feet and Ghorn would further reduce that damage.

(1.) Overview[/u]

(a.) What are the weapon's strengths and weaknesses?
Strempfs:
Apocalypse boasts the highest base weapon damage in the game. This, coupled with the ease of procuring attack on DRK (AND the gear changes this weapon gives access to), makes maxing out your white damage almost a non-issue.
Catastrophe returns an amount of hp back to the user, that is somehow relative to the amount of damage done by Cata. The amount returned is calculated after any HP lost from using cata while under the effect of souleater. That being said, Apocalypse allows you to keep hp topped off while using souleater full time (assuming the monster is not undead). Full time topped-off-hp souleater adds a decent amount of DPS.
The aftermath of catastrophe is 10% equipment haste for 30/60/90 seconds following the relic ws. With no other buffs on you can remove 10% haste and still be operating at 25%
EX:
Tailoring your gearsets based on the amount of haste you have with & w/o aftermath is the best way to take advantage of this powerful aftermath.
EX: (this set will keep you hitting haste cap with haste and your average “post-nerf” embrava while keeping you in a 5-hit):
All of the above strengths come together to provide a dark knight (assuming the dark knight is relatively capable with gearsets) that is significantly less intimidated by high: level, defense, evasion, or vit mobs.

Weaknesses:
I have yet to figure out a way to do Resolution with Apocalypse (outside dat swaps). This powerful weaponskill is easily DRK’s most potent weapon and it is not compatible with Apocalypse. While Entropy is potentially useful until 99 Apocalypse (see below), and marginally useful afterward, it falls laps short of Resolution.
Delay: While the delay of Apocalypse makes 5-hitting easy enough that a caveman could do it, it also provides a bit of detriment in relation to other 2-hand attacks/minute etc.
(b.) Does this weapon fundamentally alter or create roles for the job?
The short answer is no. You will still be a drk after making an Apocalypse.
However: Certain situations will have you full on tanking and using Apocalypse and Catastrophe to their full potential.
(c.) In what situations is the weapon used?
Accuracy:
Any situation where EXTREME ACCURACY is needed the boons of Apocalypse can be an asset. I need to stress that the ONLY situations I can think that I ever worry about “extra” accuracy are the alicorn, and the Harpeia T2, BOTH in legion.
Regardless, being able to use Souleater whenever Diabolic eye is down gives drk a full time window of outstanding accuracy. Add to that the fact that Apocalypse has +40 accuracy on an A+ weapon, AND that concessions can be made for further adjustment with aftermath gear, and you have a very potent tool.
Utility:
For situations where DD survival, mp conservation, or equipment haste are an issue:
At the advent of NNI: we went with 2 sam, 2 Apoc drks, and 2 SCH. The Apoc drks and the sams went as separate groups, with the “non-lamp” sch following the sams. Only on rare severe damage floors (Soulflayer NM comes to mind) was there ever a reason for the sch to acknowledge the drks. At the apex of our NNI mercing we were completing close to 80% of the runs without using means that got other groups banned.
For neo-salvage we have been taking apoc drk and giving them JA and main off first lamp. Fly/Wamoura first floor or dahak etc went from mages resting and getting a workout to trying not to fall asleep.
(d.) How frequent do these situations arise?
Currently content that favors Apocalypse is few and far between. The weapon is definitely not a must for DRK. I never want to give anyone the impression that it would be (as a matter of fact there are more DRK who I wish didn’t have an Apoc than ones I do).
Apoc is definitely not for everyone and not something I would recommend to someone who didn’t take Drk seriously. If youre going to get the most from your money on this weapon you have to live your apoc. Im worrying about gearsets day in and day out (I think I have 51 different permutations of Apoc tp sets iirc).
Either way: I would never tell someone to make Apoc unless I felt they were relatively capable at the job, and had a viable option for GS first.
(e.) In what situations is the weapon trumped by another option and how frequently do these situations occur?
Apocalypse is trumped by Ragnarok in almost all straight zerg type situations. I could see resolutions attack penalty becoming a problem possibly after the defense adjustment or in last resort down situations? Even then Ragnarok has an increased crit rate to help compensate for any attack deficit.
(f.) Is the weapon still functional when not fully upgraded (lv95)
Yes, but noticeably less so. Taking Apocalypse from 95-99 gives it a further 15% (from 25 to 40) bonus to Catastrophe damage. The boost in cata damage moves it from aftermath activation to full time usage (I don’t remember the last time I used Entropy outside of empty mp pool). The blessing of never having to use a different weaponskill to activate your aftermath is definitely a relief after having an empyrean.
20% ODD, aftermath, and a weaponskill that heals me while only having to use one WS and still pulling off 2.8-3k WS isn’t anything I can complain about.
(2.) Comparison to major competitors [/u]
(a.) What are the weapon's major competitors?
Ragnarok, Caladbolg, Fulgurante (maybe?).
(b.) When is this weapon superior to its major competitors?
See (1e). If you clone yourself, you’re probably going to have more easy success with Ragnarok than Apocalypse (unless you’re painfully bad at gearing for Reso/tp). Caladbolg might pull ahead in a situation that has you sitting on 300 tp against a fodder type mob who will somehow survive exactly 179 seconds. Fulgurante is just someone who is going at being cheap, or lazy.
(c.) What is the relative position (provide numbers where possible) of the weapon and its competitors in situations where it's relevant to consider? (e.g. You shouldn't worry about the position of Claustrum in Legion).
I would put Ragnarok at a stong #1 and apoc at #2 for general drkery. In events such as legion I would put drk as a strong competitor with war if using Rag, and sam if using apoc (depending on the chamber). I pretty much use Apoc for An, and Muru, only (unless I get a tell to “knock that ***off”. They pay me to show up so I do what I’m told) while using Ragnarok exclusively in Ki, Im, and Mul.
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers[/u]
(a.) When is this the weapon for you?
You are more than adequate in the GS department. You want a toy, or a challenge, for your drk knight. Apocalypse is DEFINITELY NOT for you if you just burned up drk and don’t really know what to do with the job. If you comfortably sit at 40/80 inventory, it’s not for you. I constantly have to find multi-slot pieces, and kick old gear out of my carrying space, to make room for new gear. I wanna squeeze the most out of every tp set I have. That’s why I still love my Apocalypse more than any other piece of gear.
(b.) Are there any other considerations?

Wonderful Apoc guide. It is my only Relic because it is my favorite relic. Also do not for get that in low man and solo situations the addition blind effect is brilliant.


EDIT: Sorry for super late edit (Valentines day and all) A note on blind effect. The blind from Apoc has been equated to have the potency of flash upon landing and quickly scales down to the equivalent of :Ni or Blind II. (-30 Acc). It can last a decent amount of time and is able to overwrite it's self at a rate on avg of 10% chance per hit.

If you wish it is easy enough to look through the forums Wiki/BG/GE/Alla. etc. I believe I first read most of it on a ZAM forum on Allahkazham.

I always like seeing my tests referenced. XD

Just tie your Apoc to your rag.

Apocarok that sounds fun.

I actually am going to tie a taru with mandau to the back of my apoc so I need somewhere else to put Rag.

Attach Rag to the Apoc's shaft so the pointy end is sticking out slightly. The Taru is there to counter balance the extra weight ~Nods~

Quick Ragnarok summary, since no one has grabbed it: