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Which Relic Should I Make?: A Guide
By Artemicion 2013-02-21 06:52:14
You can pretty much replace the word "Gungnir" in this post with any polearm other than Ryunohige and the post still works.
Assuming one is still devout to their fixation to DRG, what would be the runner up polearm in regards to DD performance? It would appear if one is going to take the measures and endeavors of time and money to enhance the class they love, they should do so in making a Mythic over a Relic. Until then, what are the viable choices?
Edit: I am an inexperienced idiot with FFXI formulas and derivatives, and I just so happened to page this thread.
Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-21 07:01:35
Herja if you have a chance to fight Odin II, otherwise oat magian.
Cerberus.Mindi
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By Cerberus.Mindi 2013-02-21 07:07:08
well lets say it like this, i have a friend who plays casually, doesnt do any endgame event, really loves DRG, he can (and actually is..) very slowly working towards his relic Polearm. In no existing world or parallel universe it would be possible for him to make a Mythic.. really in non. He leveled some other jobs, but still likes drg the most. Would Relic Polearm the best alternitive or not? Atm he has the Fire Polearm so i am pretty sure that relic will be better.
I know we all like to say "use a real DD job", and we tryed to convice him in this way many many times, but he still likes drg no matter how weak the job is without a mythic. So would Relic be the best weapon someone can use who WANTS to play DRG and dont has the chance to make Mythic.
Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-21 07:08:22
I'd make an oat and either invest in another relic or pile up money to get expensive gear and stuff.
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By Lakshmi.Harkonnen 2013-02-21 07:14:42
Do you ever get the feeling that all of the "Which relic is better, and Which relic should I make?" fourms, are starting to turn in into
Bismarck.Kelhor
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-21 07:19:34
Lakshmi.Harkonnen said: »Do you ever get the feeling that all of the "Which relic is better, and Which relic should I make?" fourms, are starting to turn in into
Two things:
1) The basic idea behind this thread is to try and consolidate all that stuff and give people logical answers.
2) What, exactly, else is there for people to talk about, anyway? It's a FFXI forum. It's not like we need a rollicking debate on Meeble Burrows strategies.
Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2013-02-21 08:04:55
Lakshmi.Harkonnen said: »Do you ever get the feeling that all of the "Which relic is better, and Which relic should I make?" fourms, are starting to turn in into
You'd be suprised. I'd bet my paycheck you'll see a thread pop up within 6 months that starts with "I read through the relic thread BUT should I still make a gungnir because of (insert reason here)?"
*edit* beaten nicely by Kel
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Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-21 08:09:17
What if I have Feelings Power +100% towards Gungnir?
By kenshynofshiva 2013-02-21 08:11:21
its your money and your toon u special little snowflake do what u like....
Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-21 08:13:11
Bismarck.Kelhor
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-21 08:29:49
What if I have Feelings Power +100% towards Gungnir?
You'll still get outparsed by an AH PUP spamming Stringing Pummel.
Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-02-21 08:47:55
I have a question,
Quote: I could see resolutions attack penalty becoming a problem possibly after the defense adjustment
I keep seeing people reference the "defense adjustment", did they read something I didn't? On the forums they were talking about players defense vs the monsters attack being adjusted such that high level monsters don't get such large level bonus's.
Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2013-02-21 08:59:03
You're right, I think. The only way that it would affect Resolution is if riding Berserk/Last Resort suddenly became untenable due to the defense loss and increased odds you'd get one-shotted. If you can't ride +Atk/-Def JAs, it becomes harder to hit high enough attack levels to make Resolution good.
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Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2013-02-21 09:21:55
I have a question,
Quote: I could see resolutions attack penalty becoming a problem possibly after the defense adjustment
I keep seeing people reference the "defense adjustment", did they read something I didn't? On the forums they were talking about players defense vs the monsters attack being adjusted such that high level monsters don't get such large level bonus's. You're right, I think. The only way that it would affect Resolution is if riding Berserk/Last Resort suddenly became untenable due to the defense loss and increased odds you'd get one-shotted. If you can't ride +Atk/-Def JAs, it becomes harder to hit high enough attack levels to make Resolution good.
I did include several qualifiers in that sentence. I was kind-of just trying to say "it's not safe to assume that the attack penalty will never be a drk problem".
IIRC (I don't have the post in front of me) they mentioned the effect diminished defense would have on the player, and the desire to make returns of stacking defense useful "past a certain point".
I don't recall them saying they wouldn't modify things conversely (in the monsters favor) or the correlations involved after the 1-hand/2-hand adjustment other than saying that level correction would be different after SoA.
Either way I was kind of just hinting at the possibility of things changing in the unforseeable future. I also wasn't doing the Ragnarok introspection so I wasn't really trying to get into anything more than covering my *** from getting called out later (it appears I failed).
Valefor.Sapphire
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By Valefor.Sapphire 2013-02-21 10:14:18
I started reading this thread pretty sure of myself i'd never make a relic, but all of Keityan 's posts are kinda inspiring me to level sam again and make a yoichi someday since I could also use it on my rng :O
But then i'd need to make a GK.. oh dear.....
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-21 13:40:06
I know we all like to say "use a real DD job", and we tryed to convice him in this way many many times, but he still likes drg no matter how weak the job is without a mythic. So would Relic be the best weapon someone can use who WANTS to play DRG and dont has the chance to make Mythic.
The price of Alex has been tanking faster than a bunch of freshman at a frat party when the cops arrive, so my suggestion would be to sit and wait and make an OA2 magian, and see what happens.
There are 3 possibilities:
1.) He can never make mythic, but at least has a lot of gil saved to do something else
2.) Mythic becomes a possibility if the price of alex continues to drop
3.) SE adjusts Gungnir or DRG to make it viable.
Either way, he wins!
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-21 13:41:15
Someone has also submitted an alternate Amano post. When I get a chance I'll post it and you all can argue about them.
Shiva.Paulu
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By Shiva.Paulu 2013-02-21 14:29:46
I started reading this thread pretty sure of myself i'd never make a relic, but all of Keityan 's posts are kinda inspiring me to level sam again and make a yoichi someday since I could also use it on my rng :O
But then i'd need to make a GK.. oh dear..... I'll admit it all sounds really fun and great, but those conditions to setup yoichi's potential are hard to come by. It's either against trash mobs or through extreme buffage in legion. If you're lucky enough to be taken seriously and not end up on another job for that event all together.
I have 99 Amano and Yoichi and I'm stuck as the "reliable stun SCH". Hell I'd even settle for my Nirvana SMN, but nope stunstunstun.
Still, that post got to me too, sounds fun.
Bismarck.Kelhor
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-21 14:36:22
You say that like it's not an incredibly valuable thing.
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Bismarck.Keityan
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By Bismarck.Keityan 2013-02-21 15:47:25
I edited the guide so that it is less biased towards how I play my events, and more of how your event play can change the way you chose your great katana.
It's really hard to generalize "which weapon is best for each event" when in a typical day, it is not uncommon to use all 4 of them. I realized this when just yesterday, when farming ADL, I started off my run with:
1. Amanomurakumo+Lamia Kaman +1 for Bijou farming (It's such a fast bow, I even use this for Nyzul Unchartered for fast pulling)
2. Amano+Yoichi for ADL for 4.2k-4.6k+ Namas
3. Kogarasumaru for high buffed odious farming, and
4. Masamune while waiting on ??? pops for tomes. Then I realized that the way I had written my post, Amano would have my preference. While it is true, I don't want people to think that Amano is "the-best-thing-that-can-happen-to-you" in dynamis. Remember, it's based on the situation at hand and this can vary a lot.
For OdinII on the same day, I used Masamune+Yoichinoyumi and damaged it with Namas Arrow (it does ~2k on Odin with COR + BRD). The start of Odin II has many AOE dispels, so this is what I found to be the best damage source. Also, when links pop, I'm able to call targets and either use either Namas Arrow (does 4k+ on the adds) or use Tachi: Fudo and Shoha for hate (Since the RNG's would die if I used Namas even if all of them have Anni/Yoichis). I use Masamune because of its innate +20 STR since a lot of the start of Odin is ranged damage (and since 3 links pop at a same time, it's easy to keep Masamune's aftermath up). When a tank dies (we usually engage with 1 melee and 1 PLD), I go in with a 300%TP Meikyo-> Rana and switch to Kogarasumaru in a Hybrid set and Shoha as fast as I can in order to get hate (usually quite hectic when a tank dies). If accuracy begins to drop because I get dispelled, I instead use Amanomurakumo (Depends on madrigals and Aggressor).
Either way, I posted this so that the other Masa/Koga/Amano users wouldn't be offended because I admit, I can't stress enough that events/weapon choice can be greatly changed by buffs and situations. (and setups are when I play those events--leading to my conclusions-- may be different). If I sound like a biased "hater" for any of these weapons, have no fear, because I wouldn't have made all of them if I didn't think they all shined in their own respect.
Thank you for the support that the forum had provided me because it means a lot to me when my excitement about SAM can be extended to others.
Cerberus.Mindi
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By Cerberus.Mindi 2013-02-22 01:54:38
You say that like it's not an incredibly valuable thing.
doing the "incredibly valuable thing" doesnt help when you are the one doing it 95% of the time and hate doing it. Your 99 Ukons and Ragnaroks and w/e eat dust in MH when you can stun.
Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2013-02-22 02:31:24
Didn't read thread.
Only read the mandau section, obviously.
Throw in the fact that, if it ever becomes relevant again, you shouldn't use the mandau on something that you might need to sleep. Poison 'n all.
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By Phoenix.Demonjustin 2013-02-22 03:17:48
Regarding Mandau for RDM, according to spreadsheets, Mandau(99) is best or second best offhand for RDM, depending on if using Excalibur or Almace in your main hand. Best for Excalibur, second best for Almace.
Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2013-02-22 04:31:05
Lakshmi.Harkonnen said: »Is it just me or does it look like he's punching himself in the ***?
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Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-22 04:33:10
Hey don't judge, if a man loves to punch his *** in front of a dead horse that's his thing!
Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2013-02-22 04:35:56
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Ragnarok.Sogomi
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By Ragnarok.Sogomi 2013-02-24 00:17:44
I don't think the Apocalypse analysis generated any controversy because Ashman did an excellent job with it. My only input is that the Aftermath duration is 20/40/60 seconds.
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-24 00:31:13
I'll make the edit to the Mandau section about the poison since I think that's worth mentioning. And hopefully activate a few more analyses tomorrow.
Sorry I'm way behind on all this, I've been taking a few-day internet break due to thesis proposal being due, + midterms, + everyone at work having the flu and leaving me with their workload, but I'm glad good things have already come out of this thread! :)
(If anyone would like to volunteer to help me proofread, and post things, send me a PM and we'll work something out!)
Bahamut.Yukisoba
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By Bahamut.Yukisoba 2013-02-24 02:21:04
I'm stuck as the "reliable stun SCH". I know your feels. :(
Bismarck.Amphion
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By Bismarck.Amphion 2013-02-24 09:20:24
I don't think the Apocalypse analysis generated any controversy because Ashman did an excellent job with it. My only input is that the Aftermath duration is 20/40/60 seconds.
Yeah, that is as good of an Apoc write up as we're going to get really. Same goes for Keityan's Amano analysis. I think those two need to be front paged asap.
Dafuq Relic Shud I Maek?
Because every argument has already been made
Now with 30% less Comic Sans!
So, liek, you've burned your Beastmaster to 99 and you're ready to go fight over nightmare mobs in dreamlands Dynamis with the rest of your server. But, you don't know which relic to make? Fortunately, 50 other people made a thread before you and contrary to what you may believe, your situation is not unique.
Aegis
The creepiest relic of them all!
Stuff regarding Aegis goes here.
Amanomurakumo
Sword of the Gathering Clouds of Heaven
Amanomurakumo analysis goes here.
Annihilator
Soon to be banned by Obama
Annihilator analysis goes here.
Apocalypse
The End of the World
Apocalypse analysis goes here.
Bravura
The Virtuoso
Bravura analysis goes here.
Claustrum
The Waste of Currency
Claustrum analysis goes here.
Excalibur
The sword of King Arthur
Excalibur analysis goes here.
Gjallarhorn
The Yelling Horn
Gjallarhorn analysis goes here.
Gungnir
The Swaying One
Luvdisc analysis goes here.
Guttler
The Relic-Maker
SO YOU WANT TO MAKE A GUTTLER by Scaevola
SO YOU WANT TO MAKE A GUTTLER
Overview Guttler, like most relic weapons, is straight damage upgrade. It is BST's highest damage weapon out of realistic options (Aymur might be situationally better? Do we care? Not really!). However, since Guttler obviously represents a massive financial investment you could, at the very least, use on another relic for another job, there are some pretty broad existential questions about game priorities you need to ask yourself that we'll get to in a bit. For now, just keep in mind Guttler is your best damage option for BST.
(a.) Strengths and Weaknesses Guttler's straight damage. Like all one-hand relics, it gives a big attack boost, a choke effect (VIT down) that maybe helps you get a bit closer towards meeting its pretty-impressively-high weapon rank of 9 (at 95+), and even though Onslaught is unfortunately fairly bad even by relic WS standards (doubly unfortunate because the aftermath is actually pretty awesome as relic AMs go, but the 20 second duration for 100 TP is never going to get you to another WS on BST so you don't really get the opportunity to mix up Onslaught and Ruinator), Guttler lends itself well to spamming Ruinator, which is arguably the best WS in the game considered independently of weapon type.
(b.) Does this weapon fundamentally alter or create roles for the job? The downside (other than Ruinator eclipsing Onslaught) is that it is a weapon for BST, and while it's the best a BST can do, you're ultimately going to run into the scaling issues that give BST so much trouble on higher-end content. Guttler DOES NOT change the game for a BST. But again, you're a BST, so if you have the right attitude and are playing to your strengths you shouldn't necessarily care about that.
(c.) In what situations is the weapon used? You'll make good use of Guttler in any situation where you'll melee as BST.
(d.) How frequent do these situations arise? These situations arise quite a bit more often than people seem to think. Snarl is pretty great, and since you're likely subbing DNC or NIN for DW, in either case you have some tool to mitigate much of the AoE damage you could potentially suffer on a larger NM.
(e.) In what situations is the weapon trumped by another option and how frequently do these situations occur? In such situations, Guttler's going to come out on top every time. The most common competitors I see mentioned are DA or Fire magian axes, and Guttler is a clear upgrade from those (and has a HUGE delay advantage over the DA, I might add).
(f.) Is the weapon still functional when not fully upgraded (lv95) Since Onslaught's not very good, I personally don't think Guttler gains much from going past 95; 99, notably, does not gain a weapon rank. Obviously 99 is better, but not nearly as much as with relics whose WSes are actually "good".
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
(a.) What are the weapon's major competitors? Guttler doesn't really have any meaningful competition for BST specifically, unless we're counting mythics, and we're not because fuck you. Farsha is bad because Cloudsplitter is bad and Empyreans live or die by their WSes. The real competition is a relic for another job that would be more competitive in a group setting.
(b.) When is this weapon superior to its major competitors? ...which brings us to the central soul-searching question you need to ask yourself as a BST interested in Guttler: are the various EP-to-EM-related mulchfests I wail on as BST important enough to me personally to invest in a Guttler over something like Ragnarok or Annihilator that would help me in a large group? This is not a simple question of job loyalty, mind you; Gungnir is bad because DRG is bad, and DRG is bad because it's heavily outstripped by other jobs in everything it does. BST, OTOH, is the undisputed king of what IT does, and you would never question making, say, an Ukonvasara for a WAR that was your best option for the content to which you brought it. In fact, you could say it's even greater than that, because, say, a 10% damage increase in the solo situations that BST finds itself translates into much greater results than an equivalent output increase in a situation where you have 17 other people to fall back on.
I'm not necessarily saying you should make a Guttler. All I'm saying is that the answer to this, maybe more than any other relic, is one that only you yourself can really provide.
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
(a.) When is or isn't this the weapon for you? Guttler obviously might be for you if you love the shit out of the flexibility and independence BST provides. The master is not by any means a weak partner in the relationship between master and pet, and Ruinator is quite easy to build up to genuinely impressive levels. But it IS a substantial investment, and is not going to make your BST anything other than a BST.
On the upshot, you can use it to make another relic that much quicker! It pays for itself (if you have a year to blow in Dynamis)!
Are there any other considerations? Also, not for nothing, Guttler is a 10,000 shell relic and will thus in the current economy be substantially cheaper than other options.
Kikoku
Demon Wail
Kikoku analysis goes here.
Mandau
The Headhunter
Mandau Analysis provided by Byrth
(1.) Overview
Mandau gives access to Mercy Stroke. It is D55/175 Delay and has 13.33% Triple Damage proc rate on the first swing of each round that uses it. It also has a 10 Damage/tick en-poison.
Mercy Stroke is 3.0 fTP and 60% STR. Using it with Mandau will give you a Critical Hit Rate +5% aftermath (both hands) that lasts for 20~60 seconds at 100~300TP.
Benefits: This weapon substantially boosts Attack (which dagger jobs need) and gives access to a good SA/TA WS for THF. It can be main-handed in all situations, except perhaps when you are evasion tanking something so incredibly accurate that you need to use two AGI Thokchas. There is no time when another weapon is a better for damage.
Weaknesses: This weapon has no specific weaknesses and does not create a fundamentally unique role for the job. Also, Mandau is one of the few weapons that benefits majorly from the upgrade to 99.
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
Competitors: Twashtar (BRD and THF), Almace (RDM)
Mandau is superior to Twashtar almost all of the time at level 99, and level 95 Mandau is superior to level <90 Twashtar all the time. Twashtar's major advantage is its 20 DEX, which may change your dDEX crit rate if you aren't already capped. This is a non-issue if you offhand Twashtar, though, which is ideal.
Mandau is never superior to Almace for RDM.
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
You should not choose this weapon if your goal is to do epeen awesome damage and win all the parses against heavy DDs. Mandau is a very good weapon, but it does not make THF into a heavy DD. It makes good THF better than bad DDs.
You should choose this weapon if your goal is to improve your THF's damage in the situations where you use it already. Thief is primarily used for Treasure Hunter, and as a result it is used very frequently. The events where you use THF will be faster and smoother if you are using Mandau, and that should be your motivation for getting this weapon.
As far as other considerations, you need to take Mandau to 99 for it to really shine. The last +15% Mercy Stroke damage opens up new ways to use the WS.
When offhanding with 27% DA (/WAR) and 14% TA:
Mercy Stroke - 2 hits base, 1.4*(4 fTP + 0.1 Gorget + MultiAttack Rate*2) = 7.17 fTP - Gets about D+85 from 60% STR
(55+85+14)*7.17 = 1082.6
Exenterator - 5 hits base, 5 fTP + MultiAttack Rate*2 = 6.02 fTP - Gets about D+140 from 100% AGI
(55+140+14)*6.02 = 1258.2
You will likely cap fSTR in each case. Mercy Stroke has more STR (and thus Attack) than Exenterator, but Exenterator has an unverified 5% Attack boost associated with it so you can sort of call it a wash. Exenterator also will hit the round-cap if you TA twice, while Mercy Stroke will not. This is not corrected for.
So Exenterator will do <14% more damage unstacked, but you get an extra 5% crit rate for up to 60 seconds after Mercy Stroke so it might be worth using uncapped if you have high TP outside Abyssea. Note that this is just napkin math and some claim the difference is even smaller than this. Exenterator doesn't benefit from TP.
Mjöllnir
The Crusher
Mjöllnir analysis goes here.
Ragnarok
The Fate of the Divine
Ragnarok analysis goes here.
Spharai
The Spheres
Spharai analysis goes here.
Yoichinoyumi
The Fan-Splitter
Yoichinoyumi analysis goes here.[/div]
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