PLD Vs NIN...Who Is The Best Tank?

I actually hate this topic simply because there is a group of people that debate without facts, and a group of people that debate with reverse engineered numbers. Neither are really correct or the point to this. What we do know is that hate has a cap. How quickly you get to it vs how well you maintain it is what you should consider when choosing a tank for a situation.

For example, it is nearly impossible for a good PLD to hold hate during Merits or anything that is generally weak (Assuming the DDs aren't trying to hold back to let you have hate). In that case, a NIN which could keep up better (again, usually speaking) with the damage would be ideal. This is for obvious reasons.

However, in a HNM situation a PLD will perform the best of all tanks for a multitude of reasons. The largest being that regardless of how you slice it, a PLD will *always* take the least damage over time compared to hate maintained. Yes, I am aware BLU/whatever and RDM/whatever can reach impressive feets for tanking, but you always lose something that job is supposed to bring by gaining those tanking abilities. I digress, Paladin is the best tank of *all* the jobs in FFXI in a HNM environment.

However, choosing a sub is completely debatable. I personally think that /RDM is not explored enough by many, and requires more talent than your average tank has. Pending its unexplored territory, it's fair to say /NIN is the best tank for most situations due to it's versatility. Of course, if you can't keep shadows up, it's a no brainer to come /RD.... I mean, /WAR.

@ Blazza

As Frobeus said, SAM can actually tank really well, but it takes good gear and great skill. Even then, it would not work great on everything. I don't just mean merit party crap either. I tanked Byakko once on SAM (not as a primary plan, but because we had a PLD with "issues" that night). Did he beat on my pretty bad? Yep. Did I live? Yep. Did someone get their Kitty Pants (blood spattered kitty pants)? Yep.

Really the nice thing for SAM tank is that they have access to a lot of gear that really helps their cause. One of the things that would make it a more viable option would be capped or nearly capped Parrying. It's one of the overlooked skills that people diss because it's hard to skillup, but there are a few things to think about. Parry procs BEFORE Third Eye, so if you Parry (20-21% at SAM cap), that's one less chance that you need Third Eye to hold up. With 5/5 merits, Third Eye recast is 25 seconds under Seigan. It's lame that Seigan halves your merits, but so be it. 20 second Third Eye recast would probably be "broken" ... even if I'd love it and change my merits if SE did that.

As everyone else has said, it's situational, but my barely meritted and modestly geared PLD will out tank many a well-geared NIN on endgame crap, and it's not because I'm an uber schmexy PLD. It's because it's all-around a better tank.

For whoever was saying PLD/RDM is underused and appreciated, I agree. I mess around with it from time to time, and I used it on F2 Temenos and had no issues keeping hate off the other PLD. In fact, I had so much hate, that I was hoping he'd get hate off me a few times. That carby is a mean little ***...

RDM will take a lot less damage than any other tank over time on most mobs and hold hate better over time (though not spiked like PLD's).

PLD's main advantage is through Atonement damage; if this cannot be used then it's not bad by any means but it's below RDM.

NIN is in need of an update...

um... are we talking PLD vs NIN before 37 or after?

Calling NIN a tank. This thread already failed.

I will say I have to agree with you there.

Very nice first post there Sange.

And Aramina, I tanked Byakko on blu/thf once! That's actually true and I should just leave it there to make it sound good, but it was a kirin popped Byakko, and it was just a case of me missing trick attack at the start of the fight, holding hate all the way through and getting lucky with lots of parries and evades. But I had hate for the whole 30 second fight, so it counts!

A very well thought out and informed post. I disagree with a couple of points, however.

NIN can and does take less damage with greater maintained hate in certain situations. TK's extensive use of NIN/DRK, while not always advisable, does illuminate some of its better uses. Tiamat comes to mind, probably due to the TK posts on it a while back. ***is situational, as always. Hence me laughing up my sleeve at Etrayis and Besho.

What BLU brings to the table is its ability to perform well in any capacity with the right subjob and spell set. Saying that a tanking BLU is not bringing to the table some kind of "primary role" is shoehorning the job into a DD role when it can do so much more.

(DIsclaimer: By this point I probably look like a BLU tank advocate. I don't believe it will replace PLD, NIN, and RDM, but I've done it in EXP and it's actually kind of fun. It's something I'd like to explore further in the future.)

I agree that /RDM could use some more research as a tanking sub, especially for PLD. NIN/RDM is quite strong from 40 until Colibri; unfortunately I haven't witnessed it in higher levels so I don't know how it compares. At 74+ I'd assume /DRK has more powerful hate tools since it's the current NIN sub of choice at those levels. /RDM offers more hate tools, especially in the form of CE, but Blink is unreliable and Stoneskin is slow. Against stronger monsters, Utsusemi provides more reliable damage reduction than Stoneskin anyway because the damage Stoneskin absorbs is fixed. /NIN takes the opposite approach and limits your enmity loss to damage taken, and it's arguably an easier style to play so players will likely default to it as the sub of choice.

I should also explain the perspective I'm posting from in this thread. I get most of my EXP soloing, so my experiences with tanks are weighted more towards experience with high level and especially level 75 parties/events. At lower levels the situation is often radically different; NIN is obviously a weak choice of tank before 37, though it's forced to tank anyway.

What PLD/RDM gives you is the ability to spam cure 3 in place of utsu Ni and with enough refresh going on you shouldnt be running out of mp.

Spamming cure 3 is giving you high cumulative hate gain at a cost to spike hate from voke or shadows on nin for those high dmg tp moves shadows can save you from. In some cases high cumulative hate is best for tanking (ACP final boss comes to mind).

But like a lot of people have said whether you use PLD or NIN or RDM or any other tank its situational.

Some mobs have TP moves that dont bother a NIN and some have TP moves that wipe shadows. But when it comes to who can generate the most hate and keep it personaly i'd say PLD with atonement.

You get a high dmg WS, ability to cure for more cumulative hate, you get flash for spike hate, a number of JA's that can generate hate and you got sentinel, with fully merited guardian, is one of the strongest hate tools out there with 1800 VE the same as voke but it adds hate to next move and decays slower with merits.

Doesn't make PLD the best for all situations though, i've seen blu and rdm tank stuff and do very well and sometimes a NIN is better for absorbing TP moves/not sponging mp.

!!!!!!!!

^

Well in my experience (Although I haven't hit a 75 yet) Nin flaw is it's strength. Fast attackers double attacks and aoe can easily cause even the best nin to fall. PLD has the same problem on the different spectrum. They take less damage then even one else, but against mobs that could two shot anything, will be able to take out a PLD if the attacks are randomly double and interrupt a spell cast will knock the PLD down. The point here is that PLD has more survivablity when sh*t hits the fan, but nin can survive in normal issues better. A Poisonaga then Sleep can easily wipe a party with a nin tank even if hate isn't switched but a PLD will be able to take those free hits the mob gets plus wake up the healer and/or support. PLD has cover as I believe was stated before which is a lovely move that makes benediction useable with out a WHM wipe. PLD is more a party supporter then a nin is overall especially in comparsion of the two hours. Now Nin can work well even when cursed, debuffed def, and has a spammable chain with the ninjutsus to gain hate back with out DD holding back (Supposedly I am unlucky and So when I take hate because of a stun the nin gains it back I crit like three times in a row and then the mob rushes me). Also the gear supports speed and evasion over criticals and parry. That is good compared to the PLD where the gear they have access to with good crit, evasion and parry is weak compared to the pure agi, shield block and vit combonations.

If I have to say design wise PLDs are tanks from the gate. NINs were made to be tanks by the players. BLUs are IT mobs with player models so what ever they are is what they choose to be. RDM tank mage is a front line mage. Adding this to the argument is good, but it will require some acceptance of RDM as a frontliner for some of the information to be accepted. Lastly sam well come on at this point they have a mini version of every move only thing they are lacking spells, which ironically an update is right around the corner. Seriously though a Sam is what I think a nin was originally planned to be, a a versitile bridge, a mage defender if you will. That can deal alot alot of damage but then quickly switch to defense sparing mp and hate on the mages, with out needing a gear switch (I still wish they had a move to sac there weapon for massive amounts of damage though ^_^. PW is at 99% HP SAM 1 destroys his Hagun, PW dies....welcome to the NHK).

Rdm/nin and nin/drk are better than plds but they cant tank all HNM's like at DI u need a PLD.Every1 use PLD cuz is the easier job to tank but not the best 1.

PLD > NIN.

NIN in the hands of the right player can do very well, but at the end of the day NIN doesn't have the "Oh ***" abilities that PLD does. Mijin Gakure is not the same as Invincible. If a NIN is going to get twattered around when shadows go down they don't have the Sentinel or Rampart or Shield Bash. On that same token though, NIN has the ability to stack a fairly large amount of -DMG gear for situations like that. I guess end of the day it's a preference thing. I like PLD, I think it's great fun.

ive said it before on the first page i have to say it again. Please forgive me if you find it irritating but ive lost all intrest in this thread now. Have fun everyone with this debate/argument! =^*^=b

lol 7 pages. People take this way to seriously. Just look at the novels of explanations and points that people are trying make lol. How about use what works and don't be scared or closed minded in trying something different. What's the worst that can happen?? You lose.....exp lol or you delved to 74 (which is really FAIL) I love me some pld and I love me some nin. We all hate RMT (minus the people that you swore they were broke last week now they have 20 mil in gear and don't know how to use it lol)

I always liked the old fashioned tank, Like the Pally. I would want the meatshield who can take hits and damage over nin who depends on shadow casting.
I have had too many NIN complain in parties and never hear a peep out of Pallys.
I have a 60nin so I am not trying to bash them at all. I love my NIN and is a blast to play with.
I think NIN are great 2ndary tanks and the ones who play it correctly are greattanks.
But overall i would invite a Pally over a NIN to maintank, for sure

Without a constant support of a whm or rdm both pld and nin will fail. On the other hand a rdm with decent gear can hold MP and be without to much help from say a brd, but then again a pld and nin will also want brd to help them out as well. So again RDM wins.. takes the cake and with 7 pages of opinions flying around where is the love for those whm's? Because in the end we just make all you tanks look a lot better than you really are..

/goes on a tangent about the current subject, then goes off into something totally unrelated to the current subject

Why is this thread still being discussed Q_Q

Shits and giggles?

Gotta disagree with you there, seen RDM and NIN tank DI fine, its just about the tank's knowledge of avoiding the TP moves, people on Ramuh know of Magician on RDM at DI, or the likes of a decent NIN, been used with us before. It is a simple learning curve for a tank on DI dodging TP moves when you aint on PLD, takes some getting use to, but its easy after a while.

And honestly, RDM/PLD/NIN can all tank anything in HNMs, some are just more advisable than others since they have more to fall back on, PLD example have a easy way to cap Cumulative right off the bat and spike Volatile, self cure 4 macro just makes the job easier, and not to mention all the ***PLD can fall back on.

And lol at tanking in merits.

You need to cast spells for hate as nin or rdm unlike pld u just need flash and ability so i doubt u can tank it lol, and even if u are that good u need alot of time for build hate.

I dont play either job, but I will just say from experience, in exp pt, the ONLY time we pick up a NIN tank, is when there's no PLD lfp. There are no hard numbers or science behind it, I'm just goin off what I see. If NIN were the best tanks, PLD would get tossed by the wayside. I think it's purely situational, but I've seen uber-133t NIN's get their butts hadned to them and n00b PLD's hold hate like nobody's business. Again, purely observation here. As a mainly DD/Healer, I pay attention to what my tank's doing fairly often...

I'm a DD PLD and i hold hate better than most DD's lol, I take full advantage of PLD's A+ sword. Although since i also have NIN...I'd have to say PLD is way more buff than NIN tanks are atm, when NIN got nerfed it really screwed things for them lol.

Lol quote train, a RDM iirc can build a cure 4 macro np, and they have alot of MP at their disposal, so in that respect they should do fine. NIN can take some time to build cumulative at the start but it isn't terrible honestly, and its consistant volatile at least. Other factor is the fight itself has SATA so the tanks alone aren't just giving you volatile, the DD SATA are also, as long as volatile is kept up, which all 3 jobs can do np, and can hold it, all three cank tank is what I was meaning.

I wonder what anyone would take, a pimped nin or rdm to tank or a pld with gear similar to the one in the link?? lol

http://www.ffxiah.com/player.php?id=427768

Go trick attack DI lol >_>

Kick isn't 100% nor is it the end of the world, haha, it is as weak as eating any other non Lightning TP move from him. Some solo tank it I know, but duo tanks just as simple if you have the manpower.