The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

Depends on target and buffs. I have 2 different WS sets for Hi atm depending on target's evasion. Download tells you everything you need to know.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0A0wGYYRRdaSzBHZ1k5UzFCSFk/edit

I don't know how to figure this out(andamtoolazytogofindout>_>) but here's what I got from SA+Ten on bunnies in Ronfaure.

STR 102+96
DEX 109+103
DMG 109

@100%
3471, 3470, 3502, 3565, 3465, 3464

@200%(unless said otherwise)
9197(2023TP), 8923, 9115(2057TP), 9070, 8871, 9262, 8832

STR 102+126
DEX 109+123

@100%
3778, 3620, 3710, 3520, 3855

I'm not 100% sure still, but combining your results with mine leads me to believe at 1k, it's around 4.5 f TP, at 2k it's funky... 11.5 f TP?
To figure it out just work backwards from the WeaponSkill DMG formula.

Base Damage is your Weapon DMG + fSTR(20 for Kikoku) + WSMods.
pDIF is going to be 3~3.15 due to capped attack and your SA crit.
The last part of the equation is the fTP, that's it.

So in the case of your 3464~3565 at 1k TP I make a 'range' of values that the WS's could land within.
Base DMG Total= 251 then multiply that by fTP*pDIF where pDIF is going to be a distribution of values between 3.0~3.15
Assuming f TP = 4.5 the range of possible values at 1k could be: 3388~3556
Since this range doesn't fit your 3565 value I can only assume the f TP is larger than 4.5 or you were just slightly over 1k tp. If f TP was 4.6 the values would be skewed far enough that just looking at the distribution of your damage does fit, but oddly(If 4.6 then values would be 3462~3635). Though that could be a lack of samples issue. So in conclusion 1k TP could very well be 4.5~4.6 fTP for Blade: Ten.

Apply the same method to 2k, and I get somewhere around 11.5 but the range is 8658~9090 for 11.5 f TP. It ~almost~ fits, but it's a large range that's hard to accept due to the available data size. Could be 11.75 even. Safe enough assumption to get us looking at what's best and when? Yeah, I'm ok with it. Hope my rambling helped make some sense.

In conclusion I would be willing to give 1k a 4.5~4.6 fTP, 2k 11.5~11.75 fTP, and 3k a 15~15.5 http://fTP. It would require more samples to be more precise in my eyes unless there's a better known distribution pattern to pDIF between 3~3.15.

I was probably over 1000 on that one. Occasionally I'd miss my ranged attack and they'd cast Stone or run up and somehow hit me before I could kill. I thought I had them all covered but I guess not. All the 2000TP ones(unless mentioned otherwise>_>) and passed it were definitely at 1000/2000 though.

I did realize that at the cost of a Voidwatch stone, I could pop Lancing Lamorak and use a Dusty Wing for a quick 3k Tp then just run away. Made getting 3k TP much easier! :D

So incomplete impressions so far that I gathered from your posts:

Blade: Hi ==> Got better, still has implicit issues in its reliability due to its randomness. It's our best SC option. It's also the only good WS that can fully benefit from Innin, when we can make use of it (lol)

Blade: Shun ==> Got much much better. Still behind Hi, situationally better, the gap is much smaller. Still has the issue of attack penalty at 1000TP, and the lame TP bonus doesn't make it stack particularly well at higher level of TP, just like before (TP affects it's attack bonus turning it from a penalty at low TP to a bonus at high TP, which is lame, should've been a Damage scales with TP WS :(). All in all, Shun 5/5 might be a good option to get now, if you have free slots to spare in the WS category.

Blade: Ten ==> Possibly our best damage option at 3000TP



I'd still love to see more tests on Ku, altough given that Ku has "Accuracy scales with TP" bonus, I don't think it's really going to be better than any of the previously mentioned 3 options.

Ku is going to fall into the same category as Shun. Ku looked like a 1.25 fTP duplicated across hits. Less WSC. But no attack penalty. With full buffs from gorget/belt/gavialis helm it would... kind of have a place? I dunno, it's TP modifier of acc makes it a red headed step child.

It just doesn't really fit anywhere. Unless you're fighting something stupid evasive with no defense whatsoever. (LOL)

Edit:
Ku: 1.45(gorget/belt) x 6 = 8.7 fTP counting no double/triple attacks.
STR30%/DEX30% (~140-155WSC with average* set)
Shun: 1.2(gorget/belt) x 6 = 7.2 fTP no double/triple attacks.
85%DEX(~233WSC with average* set)

I'm going to go with Shun.
*My definition of average and yours may differ.

The message here? It's fun to objectively look at these WS's but their differences and importance may be minute enough it will take a spreadsheet to math it out. For now I'm happy to accept my assumptions.

Shun boost just opens up new sc potential for nin. If you're with a mnk use Shun. If you're with a sam use Hi. Now it's more situational I imagine. Since Hi does not make Lv3 sc with all jobs alone, Shun is the perfect solution.

Metsu
DEX229 D129
6224 6315 6503 6447 6259

Fits perfectly into 4.75 range.

Kamu
STR203 INT166 D129
1046 1087 1094 1100 1072

Not changed? :\ Still matches up with what it was prior to the update.

4.75 for Metsu seems to fit all the sets of data so far that I've seen.

Very good point, nice to have both options. To further expand on that, Hi works very will with THF DNC, who just got bumped up to top tier DD status.

Notable SC pairings:
Shun (Light): Fudo, Victory Smite, Last Stand, Jishnu, Drakesbane, Chant du Cygne, Ukko's, Resolution, Stringing Pummel

Hi (Dark): Rudra's, Evisceration, Mercy Stroke, Coronach, Leaden Salute

Did Daken ever get added to Scoreboard yet? Need to run a real parser to get any kind of metric for NIN's DD output I guess.

I put the new believed WS fTPs into the spreadsheet and what I'm getting @100% is:
Metsu/Hi > Ku > Shun > Jin > Ten > Kamu

Metsu for fodder but Hi for tougher mobs.

Buuut my experiences with Ku aren't lining up with what the spreadsheet says I should be getting. It says I should be averaging around 4.5-4.9k Kus on the Chalupas in Ceizak but am only getting around 3.6-4.2k. It's much more accurate if I set it so that fTP doesn't carry across all hits. So I'm guessing it doesn't. Jin doesn't look like it does either.

With that in mind, I'm getting:
Metsu/Hi > Shun > Ten > Ku > Jin > Kamu

Which pretty much matches perfectly with what I'm getting in game.


I don't believe so.

EDIT: My GS was *** up. >_> lol

Soloing with trusts VT mobs in Woh Gates - Soundsplitter Bats and have been bouncing back and forth between Kamu to Shun light and Hi to Hi darkness and personally I'm not seeing any noticeable advantage or discrepancy in dmg between either or. They all seem to balance themselves out somewhat on more higher end level targets. This is just eyeballing ofc so can't wait to see an updated spreadsheet on how they all compare. Personally I don't see any use whatsoever for Ku or Ten.

Kamu - 6379, 4938, 3450, 4649, 3244, 3415, 4296, 2364, 3147, 2904, 2890
Shun - 3425, 4503, 3243, 4313, 2580, 3023, 3301, 3520, 2404, 2519, 3077
Light - 5959, 7834, 5641, 7504, 4488, 5259, SC fail, 6124, 4182, 4383, 5353

Just what I'm seeing, atleast with mythic, Kamu ain't so bad at all. In comparison Shun was easily beating not only Kamu but also Hi as well vs Marjami fodder. Probly more of an acc issue than anything.

I hear ya, I think on some BC's where you have 3000 TP outside I could use Ten since I mainhand Kikoku.

Or anytime you get amnesia'd.

What kills the potential of Ku and Shun is their clunky TP mod.
Acc for one, Att for the other.
If it were TP>Damage both would be really awesome WSs.

Well, Shun is pretty decent tbf, think I'm gonna demerit Exenterator and go 5/5 Shun again.
I've always loved Shun's animations.

I'm doing the same. Never dropped Exen from 5/5 because I didn't really need the extra merits for anything else. Now I don't really need Exen, so dropping it to allow for 5/5 Shun. Up to 3/5 Shun as of last night...

Might not always be great, but I like having the relatively reliable damage as opposed to Hi, and the two of them allowing for SC options for any situation.

Figured out what my issue was with Shun and other WS. My Gearswap was *** up and basically re-equipping my TP set immediately after my WS set. >_> So I was WSing in my TP set basically. XD

But with that corrected, over the passed few days I was grinding JP in Dho Gates parsing WS damage. And here's what I got:


I put the Tarichuks I was killing into the spreadsheet. Swapping gear to get the approximate Defense/Evasion of them then just took uneducated guesses for the VIT/AGI/INT. Just to get an approximate of the damage I should be expecting.

What's interesting is the results for everything but Shun were within the expected range. Shun exceeded it's expectations.


The first number in the parenthesis is the average assuming the chance of the Tarichuks popping any level is equal. Which is possibly a poor assumption but whatever. The x~y~z is what was the average expected of each Tarichuk by level according to the spreadsheet. Highest~middle~lowest level.

As you can see, Shun exceeded it's expected average if I was just targeting the lowest level Tarichuk, which I wasn't. I was killing all of them. So clearly something is wrong(right?) with Shun here.

My first thought while doing it was maybe the increased chance to DA/TA due to it being a multi-hit WS was skewing the results a bit. But after parsing Ku, and it being in it's expected range, that put that out of the picture. So then I thought maybe Shun's fTP is wrong. So I double-checked that and what I got placed it in the 1.0 range like we thought.



So the only thing I can think of that's left is the Attack penalty. If I remove the Attack penalty from the spreadsheet, the expected range becomes 2772~3349~4026(3382). Which still seems a bit low given that the other WS were mostly between the highest~middle Tarichuk level range, not the middle~lowest level range. So possibly it receives an Attack boost? Or maybe it's something else I'm missing?

Here's the spreadsheet if you'd like to look yourself(or just want an updated one): https://www.dropbox.com/s/pr3q6hp7wywhwx3/NIN-Spreadsheet.xlsx?dl=0

It is updated with the 99% accuracy main-hand buff, and the new fTPs(Shun still has the attack penalty). It doesn't have all the new armor/weapons in it. Buffs should already be what they were while I was doing the JP grinding. TP sets aren't accurate to what I was using(I was using a hybrid acc/dt set and couldn't be assed to put it in), but WS sets are.

TL;DR Shun may have had it's Attack penalty removed and possibly even given an Attack bonus.

EDIT: Replaced spoiler tags with code. Are they glitching out for anyone else? >_> Tried 2 different browsers.

I'm skeptic this happened, but it might explain why Shun is so nice at 1000 TP, speaking of which thanks for the provided data, it exceeded my expectations.
Even if the attack penalty got removed, this doesn't change the fact that Shun scales ***with TP thanks to its lame TP bonus.

At high TP Ten should be the best option, since it's not like Hi scales particularly well either with TP.
Wonder if they changed its Crit bonus anchors... they always sucked compared to, say, Victory Smite or Ukko's Fury, two other Empyrean Crit-based WSs.
It has to be said though that Hi is the only WS that benefits from Innin. (well... and Jin too, but lolJin)


I'm also surprised by how good Metsu is doing o.O didn't expect it to be so close to Hi and Shun.


P.S.
Did you use Ele gorget/belt for Ku and Jin? They should be BiS for those 2 WSs, please confirm you had them in your WS set.

Yes, I did.

EDIT:
These were the sets I was using. For Ten/Shun/Ku basically take the Metsu set and replace the correct Gorget/Belt and swap the earrings for Brutal/Moonshade.

ItemSet 331615ItemSet 331616ItemSet 331617

And some more data. Targeting Kamihr Raaz.

Shun: 5106, 30s (3191 expected)
Ku: 3145, 10s (3232 expected)
Metsu: 4012, 10s (3726 expected)

Shun's doing almost 2k more than the spreadsheet is saying it should...

Your name makes you biased towards Blade: Shun!
lol, but yeah, your data kinda supports that they removed the Attack Penalty from Shun at 1000TP and turned it into a bonus from 1000 to 3000. Would explain the damage difference, at least part of it.

Your gear makes me kinda envyous, so much stuff I don't have for NIN. Which path did you go for Qaaxo feet?



This reminds me I've been wanting to ask a Ninja-point-of-view about some items I recently got, either from freelot or for other jobs, and I can't quite make up my mind on where to use them, or what for, on NIN

Mochizuki Tekko +1 => Initially I wanted to TP with them, use them for WS for a short while, but atm I'm kinda using them just for midcasting Ninjutsu. On the spreadsheet they come very close to other options on some circumstances, I guess that's because of the STR tiers it gives.

Onimusha no Kote => since when I got these I couldn't find a place where to use them. According to your STP in other slots they can be better than my Crit+2 Otronif+1 hands for TPing (nonAcc sets), but the difference is pretty small.

Nilas Gloves => iir I think I swapped Mochizuki with these for midcasting Elemental ninjutsu. They're kinda a mix of other options, lower mods, lower attack, but +2% DA and I guess enmity if you want it. Can't really find more use to these either.

Otronif Gloves +1 (crit+2) => I was expecting them to be a decent option for Hi (I know Sasuke+1 is the best of course) because of the augment, but they kinda come behind many other options, including Hachiya+1 which if I recall is my current option for Hi. They are still pretty nice for TPing, better/worse than Onimusha according to your overall storeTP in other slots.


Tbf when I last tried on the spreadsheet the differences were so small it kinda made me wonder up to which point it was really meaningful to make decisions, I remember I ended up with a headache ...

When I spreadsheet them out, Mochi Tekko+1's were the best gloves against very high defense targets, and Otronif+1 with DA or Crit +2 won against lower defense mobs. Onimusha's were all-around very good, and within 5 DPS of the best option in either scenario. Nomkhapa+1 are similar. They do fairly well against low def mobs, and only lose by a little against higher def targets.

If you need acc, Sasuke+1's are going to be your best bet, hands down.

For what? WS? Which WS? For TP?
I think I remember them giving odd results, on some WS they were on top (Shun?) but either way very close to other options.

Otronif+1(+2crit) / Onimusha were close. If I removed otro feet to stick Qaaxo Leggings then Otronif+1 hands were winning, with Otronif+1 feet then Onimusha hands were winning.
Small difference either way, I guess it depends on STP tiers.
And of course I'm talking against targets where I'm not attack capped or Onimusha would make no sense.

But really, I have so many options and having a hard time making up my mind on what to use.
Sasuke +1 are the clear best option, at least for Hi, but I avoided to buy them trying to look for a better compromise that I could share with other jobs too (and save the ever so precious inventory space).

I was comparing the Mochi +1's for TP, but they are very good WS hands as well.

Lately, I've been using Otronif+1 (crit +2) gloves + boots (DA +2) with Oneiros ring for foddery mobs, and Onimusha, Rajas, Qaaxo for harder stuff. (assuming acc isn't an issue)

For Sasuke's. Besides a blade hi / jin piece, they're also great for tp phase when you need accuracy. Not very useful for other jobs though.

Yeah, I'm often just making an arbitrary choice between the three depending on my mood :P Even though the aftermath is dumb, I've often found myself saying why not Metsu for the aftermath if they're all so close (particularly solo).


Same for me, I use Sasuke for Hi and Acc set on NIN, no use on other jobs. I generally use Crit+2 Otronif hands for non-Acc TP on all of NIN MNK PUP. It's a shame PUP wasn't on Sasuke like the common "martial arts" sets with MNK/NIN/SAM/PUP, would be a solid acc TP piece for them too.

For NIN TP feet I'm pretty much always in Qaaxo, but I have both path A and B r15. Use path A when I don't need Acc, path B when I do.

Odd question somebody asked me on LS



They asked : "What if you were to use Rancorous Mantle(CRIT+5%) + Nefarious Collar +1 (CRIT+3%)"

Would it be better than using "Rancor Collar (CRIT+5%) + STR or ATK Mantle ?"

Not quite Sure

Anybody know answer to that ?

For Blade: Hi I assume.

They don't stack. So using a combo of like rancor collar/Atheling/soil belt or Soil gorget/rancor back/windbuffet(+1) would be ideal. There are a few different combos that you can move around for those three slots.

Um.... Rancorous Mantle + Nef Collar ?

They do I believe.

the ones that don't is Rancourous Mantle + Rancor Collar = no stack.

OR am i wrong on that Master Gippali ?

That is correct. The Rancor items do not stack, but Mantle and Nef Collar +1 will.