Tachi: Shoha

Unless you are WSing post 100tp, shouldn't occur other than VW, the +100TP GK is the best weapon for shoha besides emp/mythic/relic

Fixed.

Amanomurakumo and Kogarasumaru are superior to TP BOnus GK, he's right. One could make a case for Masamune as well, but it isn't a strong one.

For the WS itself TP bonus pulls ahead but Masa draws even if not away from it with the aftermath or ws past 200tp in overall dmg.


No simply due to the hidden effects

The damage difference between Amano99 Shoha and Kanto Shoha @100TP is 400 damage. In order to close this gap, Amano need at least 1 2.5x dmg proc in 1 WS cycle on average.

In VW, you need 3 normal hit to reach 100 TP again (less if you're popping temp items and getting miser's roll). Are amano 2.5x damage is at 33% yet?

In VW you also spam a TON of 300tp WS. Make sure you take those into consideration with your tp bonus GK math.

I just can't see tp bonus being better in any "real" situation where overflow occurs and tp wings are spammed.

Granted, this might change with future content, but as it stands with VWNM being the main event atm, I can't see shoha from tp GK being better unless the group you are with can't proc ***and you are ONLY wsing at 100%.

This mostly. Aside from that, considering you will not have a perfect distribution of 2.5x damage procs, it's possible to go over or under the projected number of required procs. A 17~20% proc rate on 2.5x damage has favorable probability of occurring often enough, however.

Taking into account Amanomurakumo's delay and relative ease of still being capable of maintaining a 5-hit or another preferable x-hit setup, weaponskill frequency will see a bit of a boost with the Amano.

This is not even considering the large accuracy boost (where applicable) and attack down procs.

Well... if that's what you're saying. That's something you'd want to avoid, practically, however.

Only if overflow unleashed close to 200TP or higher TP on Amano, you'll get a situation where Amano>Kanto

Well... actually, you have more chance to WS closer at 100TP when mob is staggered. You don't get amnesia, terror, or something stops you from being unable to WS.

I wonder if this is actually a rather significant factor. You know you got a lot of melee lockup when popping temps. As more often this happened, the pause of overhead getting larger and make the small melee delay getting insignificant.
You'll get this feeling better when playing DNC.

That would be a negative variable if the TP bonus GK wasn't subject to the same delay due to items.

edit: derp, nvm. I need to go sleep.

I'm pretty sure if you have a brd at least, wasting the time to use a wing unless it's to get a lvl3 mythic/empyrean aftermath up will actually make you lose damage due to the added delay it gives. Can pretty much get in a whole WS in the time that the wing animation and added delay would take. Only things that should push amano ahead would be the accuracy if relevant then.

Avoid 300tp ws with wings? i don't understand.


use tp wings as your WS is going off.
As for acc, the new Tier VI VWNM will see benefits from the added ACC from amano in both melee swings and in your WS, as having 95% acc will benefit you more in both cases, especially with shoha being 2hits plus any DA procs which boost the ws damage a fair bit.

If anything, regardless of how "insignificant" some people argue SAM dps is as opposed to WS damage (i still see 20-35% melee damage on parses on practically any VWNM i fight, more-so with amnesia and junk), having shoha whif 10-15%+ of the second hits and any double attacks, depending on what your ACC in ws gear is, will definitely hurt your WS average compared to someone capping ACC with Amano on the new tier VIs.


Long 6am-tired-as-***post short, I don't see how everyone is thinking TP bonus GK can possibly beat Amano out on anything where acc matters, or even Masamune on other VWNM.

Sure, it can theoretically be better in stuff like dynamis or whatever else people still do (also assuming you ALWAYS ws at 100tp and NEVER hold for procs), but as tp Bonus being the king of shoha in a VWNM era, I just don't see it happening :/

(i'll probably have to edit a lot of this post when I have some actually sleep in me)

TL;DR
in VWNM, TP Bonus GK is cool, i guess. But I can't see it realistically being better against Empy(Older VWNM)/Relic(new VWNM)/Mythics(all over),

@ Xenhas
Avoid 300tp ws with wings? i don't understand.

This for me points out the viability of using the magian GK in VW specifically. Most of the time you would be WS at 300tp which negates the bonus from the GK so in effect why use on for VW?

answer is dont bother.

any masa / amano holder worth their salt SHOULD be outparsing the magian GK in these events specifically.

and as you quite rightly said in those nms where 15>30% dmg comes from melee not ws because of amnesia, masa holders again should win because the aftermath lasts long enough when WS at 300tp any way.

As people always say, **** situational and tp bonus GK has its place i just dont think its in VW.

You're saying like it's masa/amano/karasu or GTFO.

Anyway, for me whether you're the winner of the parse or not, winning the battle is winning the battle.
Refusing to proc and continue spamming your strongest WS, like the nightmare stories I've heard recently, on the other hands, is a disgrace.

I am saying from a pure dmg perspective in voidwatch.

Also even if procing (which you should be for the wings...) you get your proc you pop a 300tp wing and WS. So again the point was, how a tp bonus GK WS at 300tp is pointless and using a amano or masa is clearly more beneficial.

Your point frankly imo is stupid and had no relevance on what was being discussed.

From a pure dmg perspective Yes I am saying masa, amano, Karasu is better for certain mobs depending on the "situation" in VW.

If your winning a "parse" using a tp bonus GK in voidwatch then your not procing, if your not procing your pt is crap, which in turn clearly shows the party is not being optimal in what it is doing.

Is winning the fight important? yes, is procing important? yes, is killing the mob faster important? yes. Would the aftermath of a 300tp amano or masa or karasu be better? yes

The majority of your procs in Voidwatch are 'low' and you should be hoping for fanatic's, not TP wings. Those are just a nice surprise every now and then. WSing at 300% TP with TP bonus GK is not 'pointless', it still does a good amount of damage. You're making it sound like the majority of your WSs are at 300%, which they aren't unless you're getting procs within 5 seconds of each other throughout the entire fight and, of course, using wings every single time one pops in your inventory.

Arrogant assumptions upon assumptions. I have both Masamune and TP bonus GK, and have parsed both, the target being Pil if that part's important. I did 8 fights with Masamune and 8 fights with Kantonotachi. Kantonotachi was averaging 400 damage higher WSs than Masamune because, again, the majority of your WSs are not at 300% like a couple of you continue to claim. They are around 100-150%. Most of the time when I use TP wings by the end of the temp use animation I am already at or above 100% TP. You're also looking at 2-hit builds in Voidwatch with all the save TP and regain you're getting. I don't know the proc rate of Amano hidden effect and Masamune ODD, but I doubt you'll be seeing it before every single WS to help close the gap between the difference in WS damage.

50% at 300% aftermath

I see, thanks. I'd personally use that over Amano in Voidwatch, then.

50% chance to get double dmg and then there is the crit hit dmg from regular melee hits to consider within that double dmg proc chance. Should you have aftermath up pretty much most of the fight in a decent group?

I wouldn't say that isnt unreasonable to think that at all.

Against pil fine I can sort of understand the procs being rubbish at times so can there be a delay between all temp items recharged etc etc yes. (even so I have gone through fights with pil where hes been staggered pretty much the entire fight)

Against fodder mobs in VW they die much faster so pumping out wing after wing is not unreasonable to say imo.

I didn't say you shouldn't have aftermath up the entire fight with a Masamune. That is to be expected.

Slow procs isn't what I meant. Like 12/16 of the fights Pil was staggered for 80% of the fight, and Kantonotachi still pulled ahead.

As for fodder mobs I haven't done those since 99 cap so I don't know what to say there.

Which is.. a fabricated point of view that will be broken when real variables are put over. In fact, all the calculation between weapons are easily become inaccurate with small disruptions we see in practical cases.

Again, you're pushing this 300 TP WSing condition around. It's like saying "Well... not sure if I can get there in 30 minutes due to all these traffic jams" and not carefully, rationally choose your paths to avoid traffic jam regardless.

Ad hominem, ad hominem.

I don't disagree with this, actually, if you've read what I said carefully. I was trying to show that Kantonotachi isn't heaven-and-earth different compared to relic/mythic/empy.

1st question : "is x important?" yes
2nd question : "is y important?" yes
3rd question : "is z better?" yes
4th question : "is banana delicious?" yes
Look how symmetric they are.

coz you like, melee so much in VW, AM is wreally cereal guise

cuz when you do 20k-40k damage a fight and 20-35% of that damage comes from melee swings, all of a sudden, your WS damage is the only thing that matters, and you can ignore the 4k-14k damage you make during melee phases.

shut up

I parse 20/80 with Masamune. Obviously buffs play a part but I normally have Misers,Tact,marches.

Mythic > Emp90+ > Amano95 > Tpbonus from a VW point of view. Amano's 2.5% proc is 15%, Masa should be riding 50% odd at all times, Masa also has a WS advantage with +15str. SAM also an insane amount of TP overflow which works against TPbonus and anything else that boost WS TP will work against it as well. (moonshade,haga,sekka etc)

[quote='Carbuncle.Xenhas' pid=1698005][quote='Starkzz' pid=1697895]coz you like, melee so much in VW, AM is wreally cereal guise[/quote] cuz when you do 20k-40k damage a fight and 20-35% of that damage comes from melee swings, all of a sudden, your WS damage is the only thing that matters, and you can ignore the 4k-14k damage you make during melee phases. shut up[/quote]

lol you must have a trashy SAM then chief, to swing that much.

Try getting decent atmacite to lv15, is my suggestion to start off with.

Your swinging way too much :/

What would you argue are the best atmacites for sam in VW, I don't know if what I am currently using is the best for VW sam. Mostly use it because i'm too lazy to switch back and fort from mnk to sam atmas.

According to your profile, you quit. You can take your trolling elsewhere.

To put what I was saying into perspective, I opened a parse that has 15 kaggen fights in it.

542347 damage was done with Masamune90
127373 (23.49 %) was from melee hits

127k damage isn't something to neglect just because SAMs are doing 20/80 spreads of damage.

My saveTP atmacite is level 15, full temps etcetc usually with COR + haste at least.

My SAM is far from trash lol

Why are you swinging soooo much D:
p.s. who are you doing Kaggen with to do that much dmg on SAM :/
SAM is good and all but 66k dmg on SAM is uh yea. Kaggen should take like 4-5min tops and thats in a PUG. Not enough time for you to swing 8 times before you WS.

I still don't get where people are coming in saying 20/80 is swinging too much. Only nm I've parced is pil (me with TP bonus and friend with Masa90). They were avging 2K wses so lets go with this, looking at tp dmg and assuming worst case, no ODD on 2 wings per ws that's 400dmg and 600dmg on 3 swings. So no ODD 2swings that's a 16.7/83.3 split and 23/77 split on 3 hit rounds. Factor in 50% ODD and a 2hit becomes 23/77 and 3 hit turns to a 31/69 split.