SE Does See The Problem With Pld....

Anye, you forgot this post; http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/24368/se-does-see-the-problem-with-pld/5/#1478611. Might aswell remove that too, since it was related to the other posts that went poof.

Meh.

why does everything get deleted :(

because Rupert Murdoch owns FFXIAH. The Tiamat drama would be enough to sink news corps stock price over night.
they are protecting their investment.
they = the illuminati
what?

lol

Thanks :)

But yeah, if you've got issues with a player or a linkshell, don't deal with them on these forums. Take it to PMs or completely off-site, please.

But post a link to where the delicious dramalama ends up plz :D

booooooooring

This is an old rehashed topic, for sure, but I always found it interesting because FFXI's enmity system mechanics were always a bit more fine-tuned it seemed to me than other MMO's I've played--some of which did have the heavy-handed feeling of "unrealistic mob behaviour" (as far as that goes in a fantasy video game) when tanking.

In Rising Force Online, which was a mix of fantasy and sci-fi (anime-style) each of the 3 races (faction vs. faction vs. faction) had a "knight" style class with a shield that was given skills to "lock" mobs attention to themselves. This worked out well enough, and for sure no one complained how silly it looked when there were some thirty players--some mages, some warrior type, some in huge giant robot suits--all pounding on a giant single enemy...who was entirely focused on one little player with a shield LOL. Players easily suspended their disbelief when it was far more efficient to heal just that one guy than everyone else. :p

City of Heroes has a similar dynamic (or lack thereof, depending on how one feels about "skill in playing")--tanks have not only skills to generate direct enmity, but also have inherent attributes that cause each swing and each action to work like FFXI "provokes". On top of this, the tank classes all have an enmity-generating "field" that surrounds them, to a signficant distance at all times, also! :p

So while enmity can be lost to DDs in COH, it is only a matter of applying a few enmity-gaining skills to get it back...the trick on tanking, then, is to play the game like "whack-a-mole" and just keep hitting whichever skill icon pops back up first. But they wanted a system that emulated the comic books...for some reason bad guys always shoot at the big huge guy in front instead of his teammates, so it was successful in that sense.

So my take on this, is that even if they were to give PLD more skills which would allow it (as a job) to surpass the long-established enmity-mechanics rules by locking mob attention in spite of teammate enmity, I honestly don't think players would complain much after they adapted to it. Obviously they seem to want to make it "everyone's job to suppress enmity," however, with new abilities for support jobs--which I think will just result in more work for the poor support classes. :/

I do think it's great that SE is thinking about balance in the first place in that regard, and for sure FFXI's system is one of the most realistic I've seen in the MMO's I've played.

Obligatory TLDR: Other MMO's enmity systems border on the ridiculous for their tanks, and their players don't balk at how silly/unrealistic it--they just go with it. SE will just add new enmity-suppression skills to all the support jobs instead, though, making their lives busier (i.e. more miserable)...but at least they are thinking about all of this. :p

This wasn't an issue in ye olde EXP parties pre-Abyssea.... :/ (I really, really miss those days ._.)

the best old parties had outside healers and no tank.. so not really relevant

sure you could have a decent mid-low level one with theives sataing paladins or whatever but that woulda been easily/better replaced with a sam or a drg or a war with a polearm lol AS IT OFTEN WAS

; ; Yeah....

i mean i really dont care how relevant jobs are, the faster you cap the tiniest most efficient lowman group out on reasonable gear the faster they quit lol play whatchu want!

So i just need to start ***to get Anye's attention! *Heads off to his mischief shed to plot*

Id be happy if they gave us plds Fencer because its pretty much useless for war >_> other than that theres not much a CDC with the right ws set wont fix. Its easy to get an Almace wont take long and pld/dnc can even solo bria easily.

They should just give paladins tons of abilities like cover where positioning matters for both the DD and the tank, but not make it easy enough that everyone would basically AFK behind the paladin. Take covers idea and expand on it, would make the battle system a ton more complex, tanking tons more complex, dding more complex, and the best of all, everything more fun~

edit: Like maybe(dumb idea yes I know), you can cast a buff on another player(max: 1 player), and if they take damage a new ability unlocks for you and lets you stun the mob for X duration, not making you "tank" but reducing the damage that party member would take to a reasonable amount. Make it have a low CD so you can keep stunning every 10ish seconds for like 5 seconds or something idk, balance it. This would only be one of the new abilities they could give paladin, between this, cover, and whatever else(can't think of anything else atm) it'd give paladins the ability "tank", but not by actually tanking at all.

Could also give paladins a JA that makes their next cure reduce the enmity of the target it cures by 50%/25%/whatever a balanced number is, give it a balanced cooldown and make it have to heal the targt for 300+ HP in order to work.

Party member takes damage? - > Cover

Cover not up? -> JA + cure to reduce their enmity to put the mob back on you, keeping that person alive and not wasting mage MP

Heal JA not up? Does the person have your "shield stun thingy w/e" JA on them? Stun as soon as they take damage~

Another random idea would be, if the paladin has hate on the target, as long as the hate is on the paladin, make the paladin have an aura around them that increases everyone's attk/acc/crit/mab/macc by X amount. Make the aura also stay on if your cover is successfully covering someone and the mob is stunned by the earlier mentioned stun JA.

Sentinel should also bypass the enmity cap for it's duration.

Edit2: Another idea! Add a JA that allows your next WS to give extremely increased enmity generation on that weapon skill and skillchains damage if that weapon skill ends a skillchain. This would help with "this DD is about to WS, if he weapon skills he'll pull hate, so I'll use this JA to keep hate!", or make it reduce the enmity of the person who started the skillchain by X% amount.

While working this afternoon, I though about a way to fix the problems for paladin and maybe ninja (tank mod).

I think I come up with a way that maybe will help. Tell me what you think about it.

They should raise the enmity cap for DD while PLD maintain the same. Why?? PLD hate should never decade while DD enmity always decade. If you don't do anything to the mob, your hate will eventualy be reset but if you go all out, you will take hate from the PLD but the PLD will have the hate after the DD hate deplete.

Maybe they can give that if you main or sub pld, you will receive the no deplete enmity and maybe nin main can receive this boost.

Instead of having two sets of hate depending on action. They should apply it to main job or sub.

Sorry if my writing is wrong but english is not my main.

Tell me what you think.

Thank you to read me.

I think you need to learn more about enmity mechanics.

EDIT: I'll at least throw you a bone here. VE, the decaying portion of your enmity, caps extremely quickly. Once your CE caps, which doesn't take that long either (~8-9k damage), you'd be right back where we are now because the moment your combined hate shoots over 20k you'll have to wait for your VE to decay again.

i think they should just increase the enmity cap for Paladin, and give it an increased enmity decay rate once it's over the standard cap. that way it's not "broken" and the Paladin will only sustain hate 100% if he/she is doing a good job at tanking/keeping JA's going, curing etc.

someone forward that idea to the main SE forums, i don't have an account there and i doubt i will anytime soon, as i have no need to join that lulfest D:

i also think they should enhance plds 2hr so that any enmity generated during the effects of invincible is redirected towards the paladin. it would give it more of a strategic use than just an "oshi i'm dying" moment. though, i can see how this might be broken during zergs etc.

Add +10 to the cap on each of the enmity caps for tank jobs. It'll be just enough to make sure that a PLD going all out can keep hate off a DD going all out, but not by a very large margin.

What determines a "tank job"? PLD? PLD+NIN? Lots of jobs have held the distinction of "tank job" over the years - I don't think that's the sort of line you'd want to draw. We should always use the best tank for the situation, be it PLD, SAM, NIN, MNK, whatever. The real answer is to 'fixing' PLD is to make more places for PLD to be an appropriate answer as a tank.

Yeah, I thought about that after I posted it but decided not to fix it. Traditionally, PLD would be considered the tank (SE drew that line in the dirt awhile ago I think). Anyhow, only PLD would really benefit by, when at the enmity cap, it is automatic deferred tank. NIN has no problem keeping hate because of the rapid nature of its attacks, and neither would MNK. SAM idk but if you're tanking on SAM, why is a PLD there?

Ok the let me rephrase it with an exemple.

Lets say the cap in emnity is 9000 for pld and 9500 for a DD. Provoke does 1000, a 4-5k damage ws does 1000 enmity too. It takes 30 seconds(you can change that 10 seconds since we can do massive damage in no time) to go from 1000 to 1 enmity.

Once the PLD hit the 9000 enmity, their enmity cant go higher but they cant go lower. If a DD do a 4k ws and he hits the 9500 enmity, it will take 15 seconds for his emnity to go lower and the pld will retake the hate. This will prevent the higher cap for PLD that I've read that all DD can go out the mob will still be after the PLD.

At least with this, if you have a long fight (5 -10 minutes), you have the chance to deplete your enmity and do more damage after you relaxe 1 or 2 minutes, without risking you life.

It would be an abuse-able feature, and the PLD would literally have 0 way of getting hate off of a DD. High DDs will always be at the enmity cap, and their enmity won't decrease significantly enough for the PLD to get hate back. That's the problem right now, actually.

That's actually worse than the current system because right now the tank, be they PLD, NIN, BLU, DRK, etc, can at least grab hate immediately if the DD stops doing damage.

Personally, I don't see a problem with PLD at all, if anything, I think it got some nice boosts with JAs/spells/gear.
The thing that is broken is the game, or more specifically, Abyssea.

Along with a lot of new and very inexperienced ppl playing these days.

If I could ask for anything, it would simply be new content (as some ppl stated already) that makes PLD more useful and requires a little bit more thinking than Abyssea does. Voidwatch is a start already but that's not enough.
Furthermore, I'd ask for ppl to actually try to play the game, do things outside of abyssea, even if there isn't much challenging anymore by now but it gives one more of an idea about the job than anything in Abyssea could.
Abyssea is just easy-mode where atmas are doing the most part of your job and gearing isn't as relevant anymore.
Need a PDT/eva/DD/refresh/healing/nuking-build? Oknp! 3 atmas+naked toon gogo.

Yeah, no. It's getting ridiculous how many times it has to be reiterated, other jobs can tank safely whilst doing more damage, thus devaluing a PLD. My PLD is virtually unkillable with Aegis and Ochain, more defensive abilities or even a "pin enemy on me" ability isn't going to change the fact that I could still safely tank it on another job, and kill it faster. Putting aside how retardedly broken a 3 minute long 90%PDT effect would be even in solo situations.