Paladin FAQ, Info, And Trade Studies.
Paladin FAQ, Info, and Trade Studies.
I am unable to use spreadsheets atm, for some reason after about 6 months of using a free excel Microsoft all of a sudden stopped me using it. I need to find an alternative.
The Pld General TP posted earlier has uncapped haste.
Ok working out some comparisons with the curesets:
With my suggested precast set:
Pld Cure Precast:
ItemSet 318008 - 29% FC, 35% PDT, 15%DT
And changing the Midcast to: (Based on some of Comeatmebro's suggestion):
Pld Cure Midcast: (Hp up, enmity):
ItemSet 318009 -
579 more hp than precast set (674 HP added total), Cure potency +9%, cure potency received +22%, enmity +44
That's 12 less enmity than Comeatmebro's suggestion, but you gain 232 hp during your precast swap and 134hp in your midcast swap.
Damage Taken CE Loss = 1800 × Damage Taken ÷ Maximum HP
Let's say conservatively you take 1 normal hit during your Curing time:
If hit during your precast, with Ochain, for 100 damage unblocked, using a naked Pld 99 Hume's HP with 8 HP merits as the base before adding gear: 1449
Comeatmebro's lower hp set:
CE Loss = 1800 X 100/(1449 -132) = 136.67
Neo's precast set:
CE Loss = 1800 X 100/(1449 +100) = 116.204
If hit during midcast, with Ochain, for 100 damage unblocked:
Comeatmebro's midcast set:
CE Loss = 1800 X 100/(1449 +544) = 90.32
Neo's midcast set:
CE Loss = 1800 X 100/(1449 +674) = 84.75
Now as you increase damage obviously the gap becomes wider:
Comeatmebro's lower hp set:
CE Loss = 1800 X 100/(1449 -132) = 273.24
Neo's precast set:
CE Loss = 1800 X 100/(1449 +100) = 232.41
If hit during midcast, with Ochain, for 100 damage unblocked:
Comeatmebro's midcast set:
CE Loss = 1800 X 100/(1449 +544) = 180.63
Neo's midcast set:
CE Loss = 1800 X 100/(1449 +674) = 169.54
Now let's compare that against the 12 enmity gained on cures in Comeatmebro's set:
[ CE ] = [ CE Modifier ] x [ HP Cured ]
[ VE ] = [ VE Modifier ] x [ HP Cured ]
I only have the level 75 modifier, but it's exponential decay from level 1 to 99 so I'll just use the levle 75:
CE = 0.727 X HP Cured
VE = 4.36 X HP Cured
Comeatmebro has a max HP cured of 676
Neo has a max HP cured of 579
But note, Neo's set has 5% more cure potency received, so let's see what we're actually curing for:
Cure4 cures:
h = floor(((((3*(MND + Healing Magic/5) + VIT) / x) + y) + Equipment bonus) + Day bonus + Weather bonus)
x = 13; y = 1064/3 (~354.6)
Base MND = 83
Base Vit = 94
Neo's cure4:
h = floor(((((3*((83+60) + 373/5) + (94+113)) / 13) + 1064/3) + 31%)
h = 451.805
Comeatmebro's cure4:
h = floor(((((3*((83+60) + 373/5) + (94+113)) / 13) + 1064/3) + 26%)
h = 446.805
So we're comparing Neo's 5% more HP cured (and the enmity gain from that) in addition to less enmity lost via damage taken during the swaps, to Comeatmebro's 12 more enmity on cures.
But.. it seems that neither of us are even taking advantage of the amount of HP we're gaining and we can both drop some +HP for enmity and damage mitigation anyways, so this whole debate may be superfluous.
Feel free to correct my math, I'm sure I missed some stuff somewhere, and those Cure4s seem smaller than they should be..
With my suggested precast set:
Pld Cure Precast:
ItemSet 318008 - 29% FC, 35% PDT, 15%DT
And changing the Midcast to: (Based on some of Comeatmebro's suggestion):
Pld Cure Midcast: (Hp up, enmity):
ItemSet 318009 -
579 more hp than precast set (674 HP added total), Cure potency +9%, cure potency received +22%, enmity +44
That's 12 less enmity than Comeatmebro's suggestion, but you gain 232 hp during your precast swap and 134hp in your midcast swap.
Damage Taken CE Loss = 1800 × Damage Taken ÷ Maximum HP
Let's say conservatively you take 1 normal hit during your Curing time:
If hit during your precast, with Ochain, for 100 damage unblocked, using a naked Pld 99 Hume's HP with 8 HP merits as the base before adding gear: 1449
Comeatmebro's lower hp set:
CE Loss = 1800 X 100/(1449 -132) = 136.67
Neo's precast set:
CE Loss = 1800 X 100/(1449 +100) = 116.204
If hit during midcast, with Ochain, for 100 damage unblocked:
Comeatmebro's midcast set:
CE Loss = 1800 X 100/(1449 +544) = 90.32
Neo's midcast set:
CE Loss = 1800 X 100/(1449 +674) = 84.75
Now as you increase damage obviously the gap becomes wider:
Comeatmebro's lower hp set:
CE Loss = 1800 X 100/(1449 -132) = 273.24
Neo's precast set:
CE Loss = 1800 X 100/(1449 +100) = 232.41
If hit during midcast, with Ochain, for 100 damage unblocked:
Comeatmebro's midcast set:
CE Loss = 1800 X 100/(1449 +544) = 180.63
Neo's midcast set:
CE Loss = 1800 X 100/(1449 +674) = 169.54
Now let's compare that against the 12 enmity gained on cures in Comeatmebro's set:
[ CE ] = [ CE Modifier ] x [ HP Cured ]
[ VE ] = [ VE Modifier ] x [ HP Cured ]
I only have the level 75 modifier, but it's exponential decay from level 1 to 99 so I'll just use the levle 75:
CE = 0.727 X HP Cured
VE = 4.36 X HP Cured
Comeatmebro has a max HP cured of 676
Neo has a max HP cured of 579
But note, Neo's set has 5% more cure potency received, so let's see what we're actually curing for:
Cure4 cures:
h = floor(((((3*(MND + Healing Magic/5) + VIT) / x) + y) + Equipment bonus) + Day bonus + Weather bonus)
x = 13; y = 1064/3 (~354.6)
Base MND = 83
Base Vit = 94
Neo's cure4:
h = floor(((((3*((83+60) + 373/5) + (94+113)) / 13) + 1064/3) + 31%)
h = 451.805
Comeatmebro's cure4:
h = floor(((((3*((83+60) + 373/5) + (94+113)) / 13) + 1064/3) + 26%)
h = 446.805
So we're comparing Neo's 5% more HP cured (and the enmity gain from that) in addition to less enmity lost via damage taken during the swaps, to Comeatmebro's 12 more enmity on cures.
But.. it seems that neither of us are even taking advantage of the amount of HP we're gaining and we can both drop some +HP for enmity and damage mitigation anyways, so this whole debate may be superfluous.
Feel free to correct my math, I'm sure I missed some stuff somewhere, and those Cure4s seem smaller than they should be..
[+]
My cure III cheat does 436(Edit: I had some of my gear satchel'd. lol. 454 cure 3), and would do more if I had the HP difference for it. So yes, those cure 4 calcs must be off somehow. Need to tweak my sets. Can probably get more HP somewhere.
Also, I looked around. It appears the last cure CE mod test done was my lvl 90 test. Here's Mojo's explanatory post, and my test to confirm the value.
lvl 90mods
CE 40/62 (0.645)
VE 240/62(3.870)
You don't really have to mess with The VE mod though. Just remember that VE value for normal cures is always 6 times the CE value.
I'd been stuck on the thought that Cure enmity sucked, because they kept lowering the mod, but with how much more we can cure, and the high HP differences from new gear, it's looking fairly respectable. It is still a riskier method. Not sure I'd want to use them at all on something like AA EV though(Note that I'm always the sole target in range of Arrogance Incarnate. It hurts!.)
Also, I looked around. It appears the last cure CE mod test done was my lvl 90 test. Here's Mojo's explanatory post, and my test to confirm the value.
lvl 90mods
CE 40/62 (0.645)
VE 240/62(3.870)
You don't really have to mess with The VE mod though. Just remember that VE value for normal cures is always 6 times the CE value.
I'd been stuck on the thought that Cure enmity sucked, because they kept lowering the mod, but with how much more we can cure, and the high HP differences from new gear, it's looking fairly respectable. It is still a riskier method. Not sure I'd want to use them at all on something like AA EV though(Note that I'm always the sole target in range of Arrogance Incarnate. It hurts!.)
Ragnarok.Fafnir said: »
The Pld General TP posted earlier has uncapped haste.
General TP set. Drop Yaoyotl help and put Otomi helm in. It's a low acc build i'd think so don't need as much acc in it.
Edit:Er, i'm dumb. Comes out to 24% Go on about your business.
Otomi/cetl belt/pak NQ/HQ coming out on top for lv102 chapuli with no buffs on. If there are circumstances under which Enif Corazza wins, I would be interested to know
Ragnarok.Fafnir said: »
Otomi/cetl belt/pak NQ/HQ coming out on top for lv102 chapuli with no buffs on. If there are circumstances under which Enif Corazza wins, I would be interested to know
I'm getting this set beating Pak/Cetl combinations.
ItemSet 318005
And ya Martel I'm not sure what's wrong with the cure equation I was using :(. Anyone see what I did wrong? Would be nice to know the actual expected cure values for cure4 with each set, and the respective enmity gain from each using each set.
Where'd you get your cure formula? perhaps it was a pre-healing skill update version?
Anyway, I tweaked my cure cheat sets, then made some AH sets for them. Note that these are not defense orientated. They focus purely on getting the most enmity out of a cure. If you think you're at risk of being oneshotted, you just don't use em. Also, they're inv efficient. With the exception of 2 items, these sets are made entirely of gear I already carried. The exceptions being bifrost ring and meridian ring.
ItemSet 318029
ItemSet 318030
This gets you a 682 cureIV, with +65 enmity. I didn't look up any formulas for this. Just walked out side MH and cast it. Neat thing, the HP difference created, and the amount cured matched exactly. <,<
So. Using the lvl 90 CE mod we have
CE:724
VE:4,344
Feel free to do a getting hit vs using this set comparison.
Anyway, I tweaked my cure cheat sets, then made some AH sets for them. Note that these are not defense orientated. They focus purely on getting the most enmity out of a cure. If you think you're at risk of being oneshotted, you just don't use em. Also, they're inv efficient. With the exception of 2 items, these sets are made entirely of gear I already carried. The exceptions being bifrost ring and meridian ring.
ItemSet 318029
ItemSet 318030
This gets you a 682 cureIV, with +65 enmity. I didn't look up any formulas for this. Just walked out side MH and cast it. Neat thing, the HP difference created, and the amount cured matched exactly. <,<
So. Using the lvl 90 CE mod we have
CE:724
VE:4,344
Feel free to do a getting hit vs using this set comparison.
[+]
Hmm, that is not the same set that was posted earlier. But in either case, it is losing to NQ/HQ Pak/K'yares/Cetl. Ejekemal is also slightly ahead of Whirlpool as would be expected.
I attempted to change Buramenk'ah to Lv119 Excalibur to see if this might be why, but the results were the same. No buffs against Chapuli lv102, BTW.
I attempted to change Buramenk'ah to Lv119 Excalibur to see if this might be why, but the results were the same. No buffs against Chapuli lv102, BTW.
I'm not sure why we're getting differences in our DPS readings Fafnir :<. And ya Ejekemal feet would be better in accuracy capped situations.
And thanx Martel. If we swap your midcast hands for Buramete, Creed feet for ENif, and Incantor stone for Egoists, we should get better results.
Thanx for the input everyone.
And thanx Martel. If we swap your midcast hands for Buramete, Creed feet for ENif, and Incantor stone for Egoists, we should get better results.
Thanx for the input everyone.
Let's see... After those changes we should get, 748 cured with +59 enmity.
CE:766
VE:4596
So a decent improvement. One I won't be using, as I don't want to carry the ammo/feet. But it does put the set closer to optimal performance.
CE:766
VE:4596
So a decent improvement. One I won't be using, as I don't want to carry the ammo/feet. But it does put the set closer to optimal performance.
[+]
It is interesting to see the actual values, they certainly beat most any other spells at a PLD's disposal, but I am of the opinion cure kits are fairly obsolete nowandays.
Even setting aside the risks of reducing your HP for fights like the AA BCs, my gripe with using cure kits nowandays is, though the amount of enmity is potentially greater on paper, with the support you would expect in such situations (Capped March/haste and a good WHM's tendency to overcure for Cureskin), it is usally more efficient in practice to be cycling spells based on subs like DRK, where the MP, casting time, and static enmity values of your spells make them more viable hate tools than self cures.
Cure potency will always be relevant to gear for but indeed, inventory is shot to hell as PLD....and I don't see it getting any easier. The new Espial gear is very relevant to MEva sets and Req sets...why SE why so goddamned ugly? -_-
Even setting aside the risks of reducing your HP for fights like the AA BCs, my gripe with using cure kits nowandays is, though the amount of enmity is potentially greater on paper, with the support you would expect in such situations (Capped March/haste and a good WHM's tendency to overcure for Cureskin), it is usally more efficient in practice to be cycling spells based on subs like DRK, where the MP, casting time, and static enmity values of your spells make them more viable hate tools than self cures.
Cure potency will always be relevant to gear for but indeed, inventory is shot to hell as PLD....and I don't see it getting any easier. The new Espial gear is very relevant to MEva sets and Req sets...why SE why so goddamned ugly? -_-
Cure cheats are still highly useful, and /drk or other alternatives aren't really practical for a lot of the new fights (AAs). The only time cure cheats lose effectiveness is when you can gain more enmity via DoT than from the selfcures.
edit: Also, while you can technically cure for 745 hp with the sets I posted, I'm having a hard time getting beyond 600 hp during my swap (without excessive HP down gear) :<.
edit: Also, while you can technically cure for 745 hp with the sets I posted, I'm having a hard time getting beyond 600 hp during my swap (without excessive HP down gear) :<.
So I broke down and decided to add a bit more -HP into my cure precast to maximize the cure benefit:
Precast:
ItemSet 318008
Midcast:
ItemSet 318009
Gives 702 HP healed with 46 enmity. You'll also want to have a set that you use based on your own decision or spellcast rules that can be used when you can't afford to lose the extra HP/-DT.
Flash:
ItemSet 45319
Again, you'll want two flash sets: One that triggers when you're not worried about taking damage (or are /nin with shadows), and one that keeps a lot of -DT in for situations where needed).
Pld General TP (accuracy capped):
ItemSet 318005
Pld TP - Accuracy Focused:
ItemSet 318004
Pld TP/DT hybrid:
ItemSet 318006
^Obviously you can swap out some spots for more -DT to make it a more defensive hybrid set, or vice versa depending on preferences.
Pld DT:
ItemSet 314919
Precast:
ItemSet 318008
Midcast:
ItemSet 318009
Gives 702 HP healed with 46 enmity. You'll also want to have a set that you use based on your own decision or spellcast rules that can be used when you can't afford to lose the extra HP/-DT.
Flash:
ItemSet 45319
Again, you'll want two flash sets: One that triggers when you're not worried about taking damage (or are /nin with shadows), and one that keeps a lot of -DT in for situations where needed).
Pld General TP (accuracy capped):
ItemSet 318005
Pld TP - Accuracy Focused:
ItemSet 318004
Pld TP/DT hybrid:
ItemSet 318006
^Obviously you can swap out some spots for more -DT to make it a more defensive hybrid set, or vice versa depending on preferences.
Pld DT:
ItemSet 314919
Yo neo, forgot about that Morgana's choker for that HP down set.
honestly not seeing why everyone is acting like a .3s precast swap should be considered risky, i've used it constantly while 6boxing vd and not died once.. as long as you have ochain on you aren't going to die
on wkr, can have my bot chain it whenever char isn't busy with no regard for mobs current actions and still never die
also, for that flash set, there are a couple 5 enm necks around now, and provocare ring(plus the fast cast is doing essentially nothing, and eating up slots that can hold huge chunks of enmity)
on wkr, can have my bot chain it whenever char isn't busy with no regard for mobs current actions and still never die
also, for that flash set, there are a couple 5 enm necks around now, and provocare ring(plus the fast cast is doing essentially nothing, and eating up slots that can hold huge chunks of enmity)
For a cure cheats, I can kinda see why you'd want to consider DT. Lowering max HP is potentially dangerous. But I don't think it really needs to be considered on the precast phase. 0.5 sec of lowered defenses... If chance is looking to screw you over that hard, it's gonna get you anyway.
Now in midcast it makes a bit more sense. PLD fast cast sucks. Damn you SE, more fast cast. So they give RUN a +50% fast cast fulltime JA... /rantoff. So, you do spend a good couple seconds with lowered current HP, and far less PDT. But even so, if you're going to bother to use a cure cheat at all my preference would be to get as much enmity as possible out of that single instance of lowered defenses.
If you feel the need to maintain defenses during a cure cheat, the safest route would be to limit your self purely to HP+ gear over current Idle. Which pretty much limits you to cure 3, and not a whole lot of enmity. This makes for a crappy cure cheat, but a safe one. Not the route I'd go.
But... worrying about DT on flash to the point of making a DT focused flash set is just excessive(although, I'm all for filling any slots you don't carry enmity+/recast- for with DT.) ~0.5 second window for something to eff you over. Plus whatever aftercast delay your XML allows for. Gearswap will further minimize time spent out of idle gear. I mean, how much DT ya got in your WS sets? Cause they'd open you up about as much as flash does(on account of the default aftercast delays.)
If you can't consider lowering your defenses even for that short an interval.... you may as well just lock all your gear in and just stop swapping entirely. Well, or build sets where all sets meet min PDT reqs. Wouldn't be very good sets though.
Now in midcast it makes a bit more sense. PLD fast cast sucks. Damn you SE, more fast cast. So they give RUN a +50% fast cast fulltime JA... /rantoff. So, you do spend a good couple seconds with lowered current HP, and far less PDT. But even so, if you're going to bother to use a cure cheat at all my preference would be to get as much enmity as possible out of that single instance of lowered defenses.
If you feel the need to maintain defenses during a cure cheat, the safest route would be to limit your self purely to HP+ gear over current Idle. Which pretty much limits you to cure 3, and not a whole lot of enmity. This makes for a crappy cure cheat, but a safe one. Not the route I'd go.
But... worrying about DT on flash to the point of making a DT focused flash set is just excessive(although, I'm all for filling any slots you don't carry enmity+/recast- for with DT.) ~0.5 second window for something to eff you over. Plus whatever aftercast delay your XML allows for. Gearswap will further minimize time spent out of idle gear. I mean, how much DT ya got in your WS sets? Cause they'd open you up about as much as flash does(on account of the default aftercast delays.)
If you can't consider lowering your defenses even for that short an interval.... you may as well just lock all your gear in and just stop swapping entirely. Well, or build sets where all sets meet min PDT reqs. Wouldn't be very good sets though.
I don't worry to much about DT versions of the flash set, but I do maintain that one should have 2 different cure cheat sets (one where you're not worried about damage, and one where you are).
And Comeatmebro: it's not just about "fear of dying," it's about the amount of enmity you lose during that cure cheat due to lower HP % (since enmity lost is a value of damage taken and max hp). You may be in your precast for only .5 seconds, but you're at the lowered HP for as long as it takes for you to get that cure off.
Thank you for all the input everyone, I'll update the guide tomorrow with the suggestions, and as always I welcome further feedback.
And Comeatmebro: it's not just about "fear of dying," it's about the amount of enmity you lose during that cure cheat due to lower HP % (since enmity lost is a value of damage taken and max hp). You may be in your precast for only .5 seconds, but you're at the lowered HP for as long as it takes for you to get that cure off.
Thank you for all the input everyone, I'll update the guide tomorrow with the suggestions, and as always I welcome further feedback.
Once you hit midcast and you're in the massive HP+ gear for the cure cheat you'll actually be losing less enmity per dmg than in normal gear during a cure swap. Since it max HP not current that's used for the enmity loss calcs, as you just stated.
So the period of lowered max HP and increased CE loss is a 0.5 second window.
Now, you'll certainly take more dmg due to lower pdt, but you'll lose less enmity for that dmg than normal.
So the period of lowered max HP and increased CE loss is a 0.5 second window.
Now, you'll certainly take more dmg due to lower pdt, but you'll lose less enmity for that dmg than normal.
It's all about timing the start of your cast. Like I said, if you start immediately following a mob's hit, it's extremely unlikely that any harm will come to you during precast. With death off of the table, you're talking about (what's a miniscule loss to begin with) <5% of the time.
In the cases you would want to use a cure kit, you're going to have a WHM, a job with superior cure cast speed and with incentive to overcure, this makes your perceived enmity gains never reach their full potential. MP and casting time are far better spent on spells like Stun, Absorb-TP, or in the case of BLU, Jettatura if the intent is solely as a hate tool. The values may not be as high, but they will consistently generate the same amounts, unlike the kits, and their cast times under capped march/haste will nearly always be up in time to cycle with flashes.
@Martel/Comatmebro: Ya I know, I kind of spaced there in forgetting you'll be at the higher max hp for the midcast. Had a girl coming over and was rushed :P. Thanx.
@Fafnir: What mobs are you tanking that require Pld yet allow for /drk or blu? Which SKNMs or AAs? Which WKRs?
I've had good whm's for years and I've always managed to use a successful curecheat.
Edit: Also, I've had about 30 people ask for an updated cure-cheat in the guide, so here it is. Whether you choose to use it is really irrelevant.
@Fafnir: What mobs are you tanking that require Pld yet allow for /drk or blu? Which SKNMs or AAs? Which WKRs?
I've had good whm's for years and I've always managed to use a successful curecheat.
Edit: Also, I've had about 30 people ask for an updated cure-cheat in the guide, so here it is. Whether you choose to use it is really irrelevant.
[+]
There's nothing wrong with wanting to gear for a cure kit, I just wanted to point out that the actual enmity gains will vary. Now specifically for VH AA BCs, I don't see the sense in using it due to the WHM factor. Perhaps a PLD dualboxing the WHM, or if there is some coordination to allow the PLD to get their own cures off, but in most cases my WHM is good enough to top off my HP instantly and pre-empt moves with Cureskin.
On the matter of subs for this event, I would disagree with you on dismissing /DRK as not being a practical choice if your intent is to maximize enmity. /WAR is an inferior choice in this situation, the gains on Provoke will be limited by the fact it is a job ability and on a static 30s recast timer, whereas magic recast timers will be near-capped with BRD support allowing you to utilize spells with high enmity values. /BLU is also another excellent choice, as it offers Cocoon in addition to Jettatura. For something like the EV fight, /RUN offers many benefits as well, but in this case we're no longer talking about maximizing enmity generating spells/abilities and are focusing on survival.
On the matter of subs for this event, I would disagree with you on dismissing /DRK as not being a practical choice if your intent is to maximize enmity. /WAR is an inferior choice in this situation, the gains on Provoke will be limited by the fact it is a job ability and on a static 30s recast timer, whereas magic recast timers will be near-capped with BRD support allowing you to utilize spells with high enmity values. /BLU is also another excellent choice, as it offers Cocoon in addition to Jettatura. For something like the EV fight, /RUN offers many benefits as well, but in this case we're no longer talking about maximizing enmity generating spells/abilities and are focusing on survival.
Caitsith.Shiroi said: »
Phoenix.Neosutrax said: »
What mobs are you tanking that require Pld yet allow for /drk or blu? Which SKNMs or AAs? Which WKRs?
I'd say pretty much everything right now.
Care to be specific?
Ragnarok.Fafnir said: »
There's nothing wrong with wanting to gear for a cure kit, I just wanted to point out that the actual enmity gains will vary. Now specifically for VH AA BCs, I don't see the sense in using it due to the WHM factor. Perhaps a PLD dualboxing the WHM, or if there is some coordination to allow the PLD to get their own cures off, but in most cases my WHM is good enough to top off my HP instantly and pre-empt moves with Cureskin.
On the matter of subs for this event, I would disagree with you on dismissing /DRK as not being a practical choice if your intent is to maximize enmity. /WAR is an inferior choice in this situation, the gains on Provoke will be limited by the fact it is a job ability and on a static 30s recast timer, whereas magic recast timers will be near-capped with BRD support allowing you to utilize spells with high enmity values. /BLU is also another excellent choice, as it offers Cocoon in addition to Jettatura. For something like the EV fight, /RUN offers many benefits as well, but in this case we're no longer talking about maximizing enmity generating spells/abilities and are focusing on survival.
On the matter of subs for this event, I would disagree with you on dismissing /DRK as not being a practical choice if your intent is to maximize enmity. /WAR is an inferior choice in this situation, the gains on Provoke will be limited by the fact it is a job ability and on a static 30s recast timer, whereas magic recast timers will be near-capped with BRD support allowing you to utilize spells with high enmity values. /BLU is also another excellent choice, as it offers Cocoon in addition to Jettatura. For something like the EV fight, /RUN offers many benefits as well, but in this case we're no longer talking about maximizing enmity generating spells/abilities and are focusing on survival.
I play whm more often than most jobs right now and never have a problem letting my Pld cure themselves for hate. Any whm that's been healing for more than 2 weeks should know better.
Not taking damage via /nin while maintaining longer durations in your pure DD set or hybrid set also provides superior hate control than spamming spells /drk or /blu in AA fights. Have you actually taken /drk or /blu to any of these VD fights? Did you find it easier for hate control than other alternatives?
I've never had issues with my WHMs curing me before a cure cheat could fire. Not in all the years I've played this game. In fact, cure cheats were the solution to overzealous WHMs not letting you self cure. <,<
So, Cure IV is a 2.5 second cast. Lower depending on how much fast cast you have in your precast. In my case only 9% FC in cure IV precast. 2.275 cast time now. Next, take out the 0.5 because your HP% doesn't drop till after midcast(and if your WHM starts casting sure when they see your max HP value decrease, and not your current hp%, then they are intentionally preventing your cure cheat.) This puts us at 1.775 sec between your HP gap being created and your cure firing.
Now, I don't know what kinda values to use to account for server lag, but there should be some time lag between the PLD starting his cast, and the WHM seeing HP drop. Add human reaction time, the time for whatever cmd is used to fire the cure(macro, typing, menu, however they handle it.)
Then we have the cast time for the WHm's cure. This would be 0.5 secs at -80% cast time, but this also doesn't allow for a midcast unless you're using the very recently upgraded gearswap. So either the WHM is using a no midcast hybrid cure set, or we need to ease off the cast- a bit, to about 65%, which makes for reliable midcasts is situations of reasonable lag.
So we have either a 0.875 cast, or a 0.5 cast. So either a 0.9 sec or a 1.275 window to see hp drop, then cast cure. Before any serve lag. If the WHM is a spellcast using there may be anywhere from a 0.1~0.3 cast delay after hittting the cure, to ensure they recast equips fully before the cast begins. There's also the delay of spellcast evaluating the XML for the cast. But that's pretty infinitesimal, unless you have an exceedingly large inefficient XML.
... Your WHM cures like a stunner. And they do this regularly? To the point that you don't feel cure cheats are worth using due to unreliability? I think you should have a talk with them. Maybe put a PT chat notice of using cure cheats in your macro. <,<;;
Now, if this issue is because the WHM is preemptively curing to keep cureskin up. Then it'd be up to you to time between cures.
So, Cure IV is a 2.5 second cast. Lower depending on how much fast cast you have in your precast. In my case only 9% FC in cure IV precast. 2.275 cast time now. Next, take out the 0.5 because your HP% doesn't drop till after midcast(and if your WHM starts casting sure when they see your max HP value decrease, and not your current hp%, then they are intentionally preventing your cure cheat.) This puts us at 1.775 sec between your HP gap being created and your cure firing.
Now, I don't know what kinda values to use to account for server lag, but there should be some time lag between the PLD starting his cast, and the WHM seeing HP drop. Add human reaction time, the time for whatever cmd is used to fire the cure(macro, typing, menu, however they handle it.)
Then we have the cast time for the WHm's cure. This would be 0.5 secs at -80% cast time, but this also doesn't allow for a midcast unless you're using the very recently upgraded gearswap. So either the WHM is using a no midcast hybrid cure set, or we need to ease off the cast- a bit, to about 65%, which makes for reliable midcasts is situations of reasonable lag.
So we have either a 0.875 cast, or a 0.5 cast. So either a 0.9 sec or a 1.275 window to see hp drop, then cast cure. Before any serve lag. If the WHM is a spellcast using there may be anywhere from a 0.1~0.3 cast delay after hittting the cure, to ensure they recast equips fully before the cast begins. There's also the delay of spellcast evaluating the XML for the cast. But that's pretty infinitesimal, unless you have an exceedingly large inefficient XML.
... Your WHM cures like a stunner. And they do this regularly? To the point that you don't feel cure cheats are worth using due to unreliability? I think you should have a talk with them. Maybe put a PT chat notice of using cure cheats in your macro. <,<;;
Now, if this issue is because the WHM is preemptively curing to keep cureskin up. Then it'd be up to you to time between cures.
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I've been going pld/drk to every AA and ran into no issues as of yet, been too lazy to incorporate cure cheat into my xml.
Phoenix.Neosutrax said: »
Not taking damage via /nin while maintaining longer durations in your pure DD set or hybrid set also provides superior hate control than spamming spells /drk or /blu in AA fights. Have you actually taken /drk or /blu to any of these VD fights? Did you find it easier for hate control than other alternatives?
Most AA aggressively wipe shadows. They all have an AoE WS they spam. MR and GK have a pet(And GK AND his wyvern have some really high zanshin.)
I wouldn't hesitate to say that /nin wrecks your enmity generation and contributes very little to not losing enmity on any of the AA fights.
The sole benefit of /nin for most AA would be breaking up their self skill chains. But doing even that can be a tossup for the ones with pets(so much wyvern zanshin...). Besides, shadows won't save you from MR's cloudsplitter anyway.
This is the combined defensive data of 4 VD EV fights.
Code
Damage Taken Damage Taken Summary Player Total Dmg Damage % Melee Dmg Range Dmg Abil. Dmg WSkill Dmg Spell Dmg Other Dmg Arduwyn 1627 1.76 % 0 0 1627 0 0 0 Ashraya 1744 1.88 % 0 0 1176 0 568 0 Ejiin 1921 2.07 % 0 0 0 0 1921 0 Martel 87326 94.29 % 3953 0 61812 14211 7350 0 Total 92618 100.00 % 3953 0 64615 14211 9839 0 Melee Damage Taken Player Melee Dmg Melee % Hit/Miss M.Low/Hi M.Avg #Crit C.Low/Hi C.Avg Crit% Martel 3953 4.53 % 172/14 0/113 21.70 15 0/77 36.40 8.72 % Weaponskill Damage Taken Player WSkill Dmg WSkill % Hit/Miss WS.Acc % WS.Low/Hi WS.Avg Martel 14211 16.27 % 82/5 94.25 % 0/808 173.30 - Chant du Cygne 5331 37.51 % 24/3 88.89 % 0/703 222.13 - Vorpal Blade 8880 62.49 % 58/2 96.67 % 0/808 153.10 Ability Damage Taken Player Abil. Dmg Abil. % Hit/Miss A.Acc % A.Low/Hi A.Avg Arduwyn 1627 100.00 % 1/0 100.00 % 1627/1627 1627.00 - Dominion Slash 1627 100.00 % 1/0 100.00 % 1627/1627 1627.00 Ashraya 1176 67.43 % 1/0 100.00 % 1176/1176 1176.00 - Dominion Slash 1176 100.00 % 1/0 100.00 % 1176/1176 1176.00 Martel 61812 70.78 % 232/96 70.73 % 0/1515 266.43 - Arrogance Incarnate 48854 79.04 % 49/0 100.00 % 586/1515 997.02 - Dominion Slash 10980 17.76 % 66/29 69.47 % 0/910 166.36 - Intervene 1623 2.63 % 17/0 100.00 % 0/349 95.47 - Shield Strike 355 0.57 % 100/67 59.88 % 0/61 3.55 Spell Damage Taken Player Spell Dmg Spell % #Spells #Fail S.Low/Hi S.Avg #MBurst MB.Low/Hi MB.Avg Ashraya 568 32.57 % 1 0 568/568 568.00 0 0/0 0.00 - Banishga III 568 100.00 % 1 0 568/568 568.00 0 0/0 0.00 Ejiin 1921 100.00 % 2 0 13/1908 960.50 0 0/0 0.00 - Diaga II 1921 100.00 % 2 0 13/1908 960.50 0 0/0 0.00 Martel 7350 8.42 % 57 0 0/973 128.95 0 0/0 0.00 - Banish IV 1310 17.82 % 13 0 0/523 100.77 0 0/0 0.00 - Banishga III 846 11.51 % 7 0 0/571 120.86 0 0/0 0.00 - Dia II 0 0.00 % 16 0 0/0 0.00 0 0/0 0.00 - Diaga II 0 0.00 % 14 0 0/0 0.00 0 0/0 0.00 - Holy II 5194 70.67 % 7 0 536/973 742.00 0 0/0 0.00 Ability Usage Ability Used/Prepared Arrogance Incarnate 49/49 Chant du Cygne 0/27 Dominion Slash 95/95 Vorpal Blade 0/60 Total 144/231 Defenses Passive Defenses Player Evasion Evasion % Parry Parry % Counter Counter % Intimidate Intimidate % Martel 115 16.48 % 83 17.04 % 0 0.00 % 0 0.00 %
avg melee dmg taken. 21.7
Damage Taken CE Loss = 1800 × Damage Taken ÷ Maximum HP
16 = FLOOR(1800*21.7/2300)
Apply 99 Burtgang'ss -20% CE loss(info via JPwiki ^^) 16*0.8=12.8 floor that t0 12.
12 CE loss per melee hit. Losing a shadow is -80 CE. And Burtgang won't apply to that.
About the only things that deal regular and significant dmg, are Arrogance Incarnate and Holy II. The shadows would be nice for Holy II though. Hard to swap in Aegis that fast.
But AI ignores shadows, so no help there. You just have to rebuild the enmity lost from that as fast as possible. Which is hard to do when you're locked up casting shadows constantly.
Personally, I favor /DRK for all WKR, and /BLU for most AA. Although I've been using /RUN on EV.
If I'm not getting BRD support, I'd drop /DRK in favor of /BLU. As it has a greater number of enmity spells to cycle. Although, blank gaze has a 10 sec recast and 320 CE/VE. Can pretty much just spam Blank gaze, flash, and the occasional Jettatura.
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