Blade: Hi WS Set.

You're right, I did forget about alpha value actually. Not important though since the wsc value is only one higher.

I did account for the attack from 12 str, I just forgot to go back and change the first part. My post was more to note the differences between the bodies alone, that was outside Abyssea so Loki's will still beat Iga since crit dmg+ isn't capped, if you're capping crit DMG+ already then yeah, the difference is smaller and Iga wins if capping fSTR or not. I wasn't talking about your set specifically.

Loki's-> 2023
Iga->2131

are the numbers I got w/ crit dmg+ already capped. Iga also wins under attack capped situations if +crit DMG is already capped. Loki's will pull ahead even with uncapped fSTR if your crit rate is close to cap.

TL:DR, Iga always wins if crit DMG+ is capped, unless crit rate practically capped too.

hollow earring is a must

Looking at all this above stuff, does ningi+2 > kaftan for Jin as well in a landslide victory? Or are they comparable?

Hi definitely gets a significant critrate boost.

Also dedicating Desultor Tassets to critdmg doesn't seem like the best approach /shrug Haven't played around with a WS-based augment set for them in my calculations though.

Iga body will generally beat Kaftan for Jin, yes.

For blade hi:
On weaker def mobs, like dyna mobs, Loki will beat out Iga+2.

On mobs that have a little more def, were the attack on iga+2 is working for you, something like nid/faf/khim etc Iga will beat out Loki unless you're using Innin.

On Kirin type of lv and def, Iga is going to beat loki regardless of innin being up or not.

Although this was with RCB, Darka looks like he did it w/o food.

See, this is my general problem with saying that the loki's will beat out iga ningi+2 regardless of situation unless crit dmg+ is capped.

NOTE: I am not saying all of you believe this, but some people do.

For this example I am not going to use weaponskill damage because looking at rounds of 100 attacks for the same purpose would do the same thing. No considering haste, double attack, etc since for all intensive purposes everything is the same including fstr and attack (even if it may not be so in reality) for comparing just the crit dmg to the crit rate.

The goal is to keep the math PROPORTIONATE to what it would actually be without actually complicating the matter in a way that is harder to follow.
Let us just say that our damage at 2.0 pdif is 200 so that when we crit it is 300, making math fairly simplistic.

At 24% crit rate and 0% crit dmg boost
200 * 76 + 300 * 24 = 22,400
At 24% crit rate and 5% crit dmg boost:
200 * 76 + 315 * 24 = 23,120 damage.

At 29% crit rate and 0% crit dmg boost:
200 * 71 + 300 * 24 = 22,900.

Yes at the start it is better, proceeding to reality of what our actual crit rate dmg boost is outside abyssea, that changes drastically.

2% head, 5% ammo

24% crit rate and 12% crit dmg boost:

200 * 76 + 336 * 24 = 23264

29% crit rate and 7% crit dmg boost:
200 * 71 + 321 * 29 = 23509

Same values, however just considering the fact that we are using other crit dmg+ gear clearly shows that simply because the crit % rate > crit dmg % does not make crit dmg better.

The crit dmg boost is limited by the crit rate, the crit rate is not limited by the crit dmg boost. The same function should apply to the weaponskill, though the point where the crit dmg+ becomes less beneficial would be higher due to tp mods of the crit rate but I am sure my point still comes across, yes?

Now if we went to the point of extremes: (considering ws tp bonus as a bonus to crit rate, and all crit rate %+ items except body and all crit dmg %+ pieces bar body and comparing just the bodies)

Assume crit rate bonus of 10% based on tp (so 100% tp...if you're tping at anything much higher than this, you'd be gimping dmg anyway thus making it pointless in comparisons to maximize damage)

3% crit rate back:
2% crit dmg+ neck, 3% legs, 2% head, 5% ammo, 10% sub

At 37% crit rate 22% crit dmg+

200 * 63 + 366 * 37 = 26142

At 37% crit rate 27% crit dmg+

200 * 63 + 381 * 37 = 26697

At 42% crit rate 22% crit dmg+

200 * 58 + 366 * 42 = 26972

Keep in mind that this is math based on equivalent FSTR, not considering AGI modifiers, and capped PDIF to compare ONLY the crit dmg+ and crit rate+ showing that loki's due to the crit dmg+ will NOT always be better and is slightly beaten by the crit rate, but that the other modifiers will tip in favor of one or the other, obviously and that the less crit dmg+ you use outside abyssea then yes, the higher the crit dmg+ boost actually is but the crit dmg boost is still limited highly by the crit rate itself. It should also be noted that in actually dealing with weaponskill damage, the difference in damage based on agi mods, fstr mods and pdif differences will heavily impact any decision.

Not factoring in a hefty AGI mod, assuming capped PDIF, assuming capped fStr, and assuming a higher than normal crit rate average outside abyssea (24% only if you're capping dDex also..), makes your math a bit off.

That's not to say I don't agree with your initial statement:

Loki's isn't always the best for Blade: Hi, at least not outside Abyssea. AF+2 should be pretty close in damage in pDif capped situations and easily beat it when you're not capped on pDif/fStr.

Would be pretty safe to say: WS in Loki's inside abyssea and AF+2 outside abyssea, which I think most people already knew.

Basically: For WS set outside abyssea:

Cap dDex, then work on modifer/attack.

Changes from inside abyssea gear would be:

AF3+2 body.
AF3+2 hands.
Maats cap.

Other spots are harder to tell, but would depend on your str/dex/attack values.

My point with the math was to give Loki's Kaftan the best case it could possibly get outside abyssea, as for inside abyssea, my original statement was trying to compare the set below to current believed sets inside abyssea; outside, there are other factors that have huge impacts, mainly being str/dex and attack.

Head: ws dmg+2%, crit dmg+ 2% agi/dex+4
legs: DA+2%, crit dmg+3%


Mentioned this since it is no longer on the page.

Outside abyssea I would likely use this set:



Regardless, I think loki's is a good piece, but I just want to maximize damage; if the damage inside abyssea using my ASA legs/head that way is better it is worth it, outside abyssea i haven't done enough research to advocate one way or another, but the head should atleast be superior to anything else and legs may be inferior to att+18, dex+5 legs outside, but inside I feel this is the best set that I can get.

I don't see the AF3+2 body winning for Blade: Hi inside abyssea (using RR, GH, Apoc) regardless of the buffs/other gear. Also Atheling mantle still wins outside abyssea.

The reason af3+2 body should win is because crit dmg+ caps at 50% and my gear set is 50% without loki's inside abyssea.

Yes, Atheling mantle is probably better outside abyssea. I just didn't take the time to compare right off hand.

Right, by arbitrarily using in inferior cape instead of Atheling inside abyssea you make the sets slightly closer..

Lokis + Atheling > AF3+2 + Iga back.

In abyssea the str/dex are a moot point as you're already capping fStr and dDex, so it's a comparison of:

11 agi mod + 3% DA

vs.

3 more attack, 18 acc, 5% crit rate.

Only way +2 body comes close is in very low acc situations (in abyssea).

Furthermore, Atheling always beats Iga back, in both sets, regardless.

edit: Btw, I'm not trying to come off as argumentative, I'm as interested as you are in different sets and finding what's the best, I'm just troubleshooting your math/logic.

You fail to see the point about critical hit damage, the Iga back has absoultely nothing to do with the difference. its critical hit damage that caps out.

RR = 30%, ammo = 5%, sub = 10%, head = 2%, legs = 3%. Add this together and you get 50% add another 5% from loki's and you still get 50%. Meaning that the only boost is the agi+11.

Atheling could be used in either case and as I mentioned I didn't do the straight out math for either one yet. The main reason I put iga back over atheling, other than me not owning it, is because DA is a +3% rate of 3/100 Hi's so 3/100 Hi's will gain a 1.00 boost. (No where near 3% actual boost due to comparing current DA/TA rate in the math) whereas crit + 3% is a increased chance for the crit to occur which gets multiplied by the 4.00 mod because it occurs on the first hit, the DA does not so I still need to do the math for that.

Regardless, the choices would be Loki/Iga, Loki/atheling, Iga+2/Iga, or Iga+2/atheling and given that critical hit damage caps out, only the last two would be in the run for increased damage.

edit: the crit rate increase would have similar decreasing effects as double attack and I know that is also a huge factor. Atheling's biggest bonus is really the attack IMO.

Yes, I know you aren't trying to attack and that talking things through makes it easier to spot errors, hence why I came here in the first place, for other opinions so that instead of keeping it as the best until I could come up with better options on my own, I have more people to spread their own opinions around so I have to look at different cases.

Ah yes I was thinking +damage on Iga back, not % rate, busy at work.

So ignoring the back (which should be Atheling in both sets), it's a comparison of

Loki's + Ambusher's Hose

vs.

AF3+2 + Augmented pants.

21 Agi 3% crit damage vs 18 acc, 5% crit rate, 2 DA.

Loki's still wins. I guess if you don't have ambusher's hose and are thus not getting as much benefit from the crit bonus damage on Lokis, then ya they are closer..

Not quite, Loki's + Ambusher's Hose

21 AGI, 3% crit dmg vs 2 AGI, 12 STR, 17 att, 5% crit rate, 3% critical hit damage and 2% DA

This makes the difference:
19 AGI vs between fSTR(3) and fSTR(0), 23 attack, 5% crit rate and 2% DA.

This is why I believe that loki's isn't the optimal piece if one can use the ASA legs and MDK head for these purposes.

Capped fStr in abyssea, so it's just attack, crit hit, and DA.

Like I said, if you're choosing to use ASA legs over Ambushers, then Lokis has less of an advantage (in low attack situations).

Seems like a stretch when the Loki's combination is close or wins in most situations, allowing you to use the ASA legs for something else (or not even buy their shitty excuse for an expansion).

We're probably arguing about less than 1% difference though, so whatever floats your boat lol.

The big question is:

How will augmented kings/salvage gear change the equation?

Byakko's Haidate with AGI!?, Hell, Usukane Legs with Agi or WS damage?! Augmented Hachiryu Feet!?

We'll see what 95 brings us.

This is what I could piece together for now & I can improve on it in time so suggestions anyone, Thx in advance.

Ambusher's hose are much easier to get than Denali Legs.

I have the legs already & can get the hose in time any other suggestions? Am I stacking my Agi too much? Not even sure that even matters, Tigerwoods, where you at when I need ya?

Epona's, Brutal, Gorget/Hope Torque, etc. There's a ton of info in the thread already.

Replace earrings with brutal / aesir, or perhaps WoTG earring with att+4 and TP bonus+25 or something.

Replace legs with... ASA legs, or ambusher's hose or the att+18 legs.

Replace neck with gorget or articer's torque or hope torque (because you're capped on crit dmg+, you cant go any higher).

Replace head with MKD one with ws dmg+2% agi+4 and w/e else floats your boat.

If you replace legs with ASA and head with MKD and pick crit dmg+3%/2% respectively you can swap out loki's with iga+2 without losing crit dmg+.

Use Epona's ring if possible.

Note that my suggestions are inside abyssea, some things would have to be altered if outside.

im working on a non-abyssea set. so far my WS avg is 1.7-2.2k with this set any ideas guys?

i tried to focus on attack since crit hit rate wont be as high outside abyssea.



any thoughts?

Usuakane?? STR+5 DEX+5... i can see that for Jin... if going for the dex to raise crit hit rate would kitty pants be better?

Ungur? is situational im going for max ws dmg. ungur isnt going to increase ws dmg if im not mistaken.

as for maats i don't have that at the moment... people in this thread keep saying 7AGI 7STR >> 12 STR 24attak...has anyone compared the dmg in ws results? outside of abyssea

Considering a naked 90 NIN has as much eva as a decked out NIN in full eva did at 75, defaulting to Ungur for current non-Abyssea content seems like overkill for the most part. Maybe in WoE but lolWoE.

You are almost certainly overcapping attack with that set on most old content. Work some more DEX in there to up your critrate (Maat's, Iga +2 hands, Byakko's for high AGI stuff maybe).

STR raises fSTR. Maat's also has DEX+7 which can be up to a 7% increase in base critrate... so yeah, STR+7 DEX+7 AGI+7 is pretty hot.

anything besides maats cap u could recommend? im really trying to avoid leveling those jobs...

nemus khud/+1

Uhhh... Deceit Mask or Aias Bonnet I guess.

Questions about sets outside:

Im currently using fire bomblet for both TP/HI outside but thinking on getting a DEX or AGI sachet, but dunno which, think the DEX one would be better to give more crit chances/stable numbers, but wondering really.

Also i use anguinus belt over elemental belt and Byakko haidate over hachiryu, works really well but got the doubt if the elemental belt would be better overall.

Using kannagi/oirandori also, working on gorget as well (gonna get done soon) so just using arctier's in the meantime (i know, lol) but im aiming for the sea torque, think i saw ppl saying it was better than gorget, is it true? torque adds mod, acc/att so prolly is.

thanks.