Overall Battle System Adjustments For The Future
Overall Battle System Adjustments for the Future
If PLD becomes worth a damn or RNF then the DEF issue makes sense.
Sylph.Peldin said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Yes, i don't see why dnc needs to be relevant to legion when war isn't relevant to dyna and rdm isn't relevant to anything. The fact is that the most successful groups write the book on how to do the content, and that almost always is the quickest or most efficient. And the quickest and most efficient strats almost always revolve around a handful of hard hitting and heavily buffed 2 handers... Buffing 1 handers just means those same jobs will then dual wield.
Get real dude. That's not an argument. That's basically you saying "I'm afraid of change"
The argument that 2H jobs are worse at soloing is a decent argument to make. But farming dynamis is just one form of making money by yourself. That doesn't equate to relevancy in end-game events. There are MANY different ways to go about making money by yourself and you don't have people depending on you to do it as efficiently as possible. Your linkshell doesn't parse your solo rate in dynamis. They don't parse your HQ/NQ synth ratio when you craft. They don't count the number of fish you bring in. They don't count how many sky gods you can kill in a day.
So stop bringing up the stupid dynamis argument. The fact is, 2H jobs are actually better for farming money out of dynamis too. Low-man ADL runs are FAR better money than solo dynamis coin runs.
Here's the thing that you don't seem to get. When it comes to group activities, other people are depending on you to do your job well. When you are out soloing, nobody cares except you. So when you have to turn around and level/gear a new job, it's FAR easier/faster to do that for soloing than it is for end-game activities.
Carbuncle.Shokox said: »
WAR/DRK/DRG/SAM should continue to wreck ***in main events than other jobs. That's their job, wrecking ***.
Why isn't MNK part of your list? Because they don't wield a 2H weapon? Their whole reason for being is to beat the crap out of things. Is it because of pchan? If so, then I can understand that.
Bismarck.Ihina said: »
Quote:
In the event that you jump into battles and pay no attention to your defense, you will take damage for nearly two-times the amount that it is now, so the way the job is played will change.
You're out of your mind if you think the general player base is going to adjust to this.
All this means is that rng and possibly blm will come back.
OH NO we're going to have to employ strategies aside from putting up every buff we have and spamming WSs until the NM dies???
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Just having the job leveled doesn't mean it's useable against something that you would have to use a pld against.
I hope you have a couple nifty shields.
I hope you have a couple nifty shields.
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Bismarck.Ihina said: »
Quote:
In the event that you jump into battles and pay no attention to your defense, you will take damage for nearly two-times the amount that it is now, so the way the job is played will change.
You're out of your mind if you think the general player base is going to adjust to this.
All this means is that rng and possibly blm will come back.
OH NO we're going to have to employ strategies aside from putting up every buff we have and spamming WSs until the NM dies???
I know right.
I can already hear the casuals typing up their rants about how they're going to ragequit and unsubscribe/etc.
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Definitely looking forward to it. Less people clogging up my alliances with their gimpery
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Instead of sighing over people in pink gear, we can sigh over people with 85 emps.
I mean, more than I already do.
I mean, more than I already do.
Sorry for not posting the official translation yet, I'll get to it in a few minutes for those who haven't read it.
Bismarck.Ihina said: »
Quote:
In the event that you jump into battles and pay no attention to your defense, you will take damage for nearly two-times the amount that it is now, so the way the job is played will change.
You're out of your mind if you think the general player base is going to adjust to this.
All this means is that rng and possibly blm will come back.
Go reread their post, their also talking about lowing the monsters offensive ability and possible LCF. Between the two it should be a wash with the option to focus a bit on defense and not die. Essentially its the same thing good DD's are already doing with PDT sets.
01-18-2013 06:24 PM
| |||||||
| Happy Friday everyone! I have a couple of follow-ups in regards to the various topics discussed in this thread. Before reading, please note that the below is based on discussions amongst the team as well as information that we confirmed with the lead directly. This information is not finalized. As this is not a post directly from the developers themselves, there is a possibility that there is information here that is incorrect due to the fact this text has not been checked by them after it was written, meaning edits or additional supplementation may be made after the fact. With that said… Here's what Matsui mentioned about defense.
The development team is currently looking into the below adjustments for the attack/defense ratio.
Also, with the adjustments to the attack/defense ratio and the level difference correction, weapons that have a modifier of 1.0 will become much stronger than what they are currently.
Below are some changes to the adjustment plans:
Also, the development team is aware of everyone’s concerns that monster’s special attacks are a bit on the fierce side. They are currently discussing making it similar to new Limbus, Odin’s Chamber II, and Meeble Burrows where you can formulate a strategy to evade special attacks, and also with the defense adjustments it will be possible to withstand an enemy’s attack more than now as their attack power is reduced. The goal is to change the conditions where you need to defeat a monster right away because even a single regular hit from them deals too much damage. Next, on to dark knight… There are two large principles that the development team is keeping in mind:
As mentioned previously, with the adjustments to the attack/defense ratio, a greater emphasis will be placed on defense. In the event that you jump into battles and pay no attention to your defense, you will take damage for nearly two-times the amount that it is now, so the way the job is played will change. With that said, based on these changes to the attack/defense ratio we will be fleshing out specifics for what kind of adjustments are necessary for other jobs and let you know once we have some information. Finally, elemental magic. When comparing the amount of damage a character deals, elemental magic possesses a higher potential than that of other front-line jobs. However, there is a wide variety of ways to support front-line jobs and not nearly as many ways to support back-line jobs. Instead of focusing only on adjusting black mage, in addition to our our recently discussed elemental magic changes, we feel it would be better to address the support difference by enabling other jobs to offer more ways to enhance the capabilities of magic users. Also, we do not have any plans to reduce the casting time or recast time any further than what was listed due to the fact that the average damage will increase and it will also be possible to deal good damage with tier II and III spells. We are also planning to make adjustments to “-ga” and “-ja” type spells following these guidelines as well. Similarly, we are planning to make adjustments to ancient magic, slightly deviating from these guidelines. | ||||||
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Okay, I see a mention of ELEMENTAL magic being able to be buffed, but not PHYSICAL magic being able to be buffed. As in Blue Mage Physical Spells have no way of being buffed. Just as black mages have no food or bard buffs to boost their magic attack or potency, blue mages have no way of having their blue physical magic, their bread and butter damage besides swords, enhanced. So much so, that many BLU just rely on sword damage and CDC damage, and don't cast so much.
In voidwatch, I can't even use my physical spells because they don't do ANY reasonable damage against the NMs there (due to level correction and extremely low blue magic attack), and because I have so many elemental procs to set, I have no room for any physical spells. I have to set half the blue mage procs, and that just usually leaves room for a cure, and sometimes a job trait spell (I like to set water procs and have empty thrash so I get double attack, but it's not always an option). Recently, I have had just have room for a cure, and 4 elements worth of procs.
And Legion? I've tried legion, and I know for a fact BLU is worthless in legion because physical spells do nothing against HNMs for the same reason. At least I can bring SAM to legion, because it's a two-hander job.
Blue Mage is only good against lower level mobs (legacy events, Abyssea), though some of what they've said might help a little bit, if they lower some mobs' levels, and increase one-handed melee damage.
In voidwatch, I can't even use my physical spells because they don't do ANY reasonable damage against the NMs there (due to level correction and extremely low blue magic attack), and because I have so many elemental procs to set, I have no room for any physical spells. I have to set half the blue mage procs, and that just usually leaves room for a cure, and sometimes a job trait spell (I like to set water procs and have empty thrash so I get double attack, but it's not always an option). Recently, I have had just have room for a cure, and 4 elements worth of procs.
And Legion? I've tried legion, and I know for a fact BLU is worthless in legion because physical spells do nothing against HNMs for the same reason. At least I can bring SAM to legion, because it's a two-hander job.
Blue Mage is only good against lower level mobs (legacy events, Abyssea), though some of what they've said might help a little bit, if they lower some mobs' levels, and increase one-handed melee damage.
Sylph.Peldin said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Yes, i don't see why dnc needs to be relevant to legion when war isn't relevant to dyna and rdm isn't relevant to anything. The fact is that the most successful groups write the book on how to do the content, and that almost always is the quickest or most efficient. And the quickest and most efficient strats almost always revolve around a handful of hard hitting and heavily buffed 2 handers... Buffing 1 handers just means those same jobs will then dual wield.
Get real dude. That's not an argument. That's basically you saying "I'm afraid of change"
The argument that 2H jobs are worse at soloing is a decent argument to make. But farming dynamis is just one form of making money by yourself. That doesn't equate to relevancy in end-game events. There are MANY different ways to go about making money by yourself and you don't have people depending on you to do it as efficiently as possible. Your linkshell doesn't parse your solo rate in dynamis. They don't parse your HQ/NQ synth ratio when you craft. They don't count the number of fish you bring in. They don't count how many sky gods you can kill in a day.
So stop bringing up the stupid dynamis argument. The fact is, 2H jobs are actually better for farming money out of dynamis too. Low-man ADL runs are FAR better money than solo dynamis coin runs.
Here's the thing that you don't seem to get. When it comes to group activities, other people are depending on you to do your job well. When you are out soloing, nobody cares except you. So when you have to turn around and level/gear a new job, it's FAR easier/faster to do that for soloing than it is for end-game activities.
Carbuncle.Shokox said: »
WAR/DRK/DRG/SAM should continue to wreck ***in main events than other jobs. That's their job, wrecking ***.
Why isn't MNK part of your list? Because they don't wield a 2H weapon? Their whole reason for being is to beat the crap out of things. Is it because of pchan? If so, then I can understand that.
I didn't say anything about keeping it that way cause that's how its always been, it in fact hadn't always been that way. Adjust the level correction as me and many others have said, and buff fencer to make pld's damage more relevant. Flat out dropping the 2 handed calculations is crap because it will break many aspects of how the heavy dd's work. And once again, a 2 handed weapon should do more damage above having a higher base damage, that's the whole point of a heavy dd.
2h weapons should have a severe accuracy penalty or something. It has to be harder to swing a great axe and hit something than to stab it with a dagger!
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Carbuncle.Luthian said: »
Fenrir.Sylow said: »
Depending on how they change the caps, it could make Counterstance absolutely horrifying.
Time to skill up Guard!
I'm hoping the new adjustments favor those who have high or capped skills. And shame on SE for not taking 5 minutes and changing all enemies level correction adjustment and not just SoAD.
I remember when def and vit meant something on Pld, tanking Mandies in the jungle and getting popped for 5-8 DMg while keeping hate was sexy. I hope these changes bring similar results because I miss my PLD.
If they do decide to remove LCF, I really hope it's across the board, because they're just going to make things a lot more complicated otherwise. They would inevitably have to revise Counterstance, Cocoon, and other abilities to fit with the non-LCF system, and unless they're planning on just making SoA run on a completely secluded system it would just be a lot easier on them as well as us if they just get rid of LCF entirely.
occurs to me that I haven't even considered that attack down spells and weaponskills may become useful too
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Siren.Kalilla said: »
01-18-2013 06:24 PM
| |||||||
| Happy Friday everyone! I have a couple of follow-ups in regards to the various topics discussed in this thread. Before reading, please note that the below is based on discussions amongst the team as well as information that we confirmed with the lead directly. This information is not finalized. As this is not a post directly from the developers themselves, there is a possibility that there is information here that is incorrect due to the fact this text has not been checked by them after it was written, meaning edits or additional supplementation may be made after the fact. With that said… Here's what Matsui mentioned about defense.
The development team is currently looking into the below adjustments for the attack/defense ratio.
Also, with the adjustments to the attack/defense ratio and the level difference correction, weapons that have a modifier of 1.0 will become much stronger than what they are currently.
Below are some changes to the adjustment plans:
Also, the development team is aware of everyone’s concerns that monster’s special attacks are a bit on the fierce side. They are currently discussing making it similar to new Limbus, Odin’s Chamber II, and Meeble Burrows where you can formulate a strategy to evade special attacks, and also with the defense adjustments it will be possible to withstand an enemy’s attack more than now as their attack power is reduced. The goal is to change the conditions where you need to defeat a monster right away because even a single regular hit from them deals too much damage. Next, on to dark knight… There are two large principles that the development team is keeping in mind:
As mentioned previously, with the adjustments to the attack/defense ratio, a greater emphasis will be placed on defense. In the event that you jump into battles and pay no attention to your defense, you will take damage for nearly two-times the amount that it is now, so the way the job is played will change. With that said, based on these changes to the attack/defense ratio we will be fleshing out specifics for what kind of adjustments are necessary for other jobs and let you know once we have some information. Finally, elemental magic. When comparing the amount of damage a character deals, elemental magic possesses a higher potential than that of other front-line jobs. However, there is a wide variety of ways to support front-line jobs and not nearly as many ways to support back-line jobs. Instead of focusing only on adjusting black mage, in addition to our our recently discussed elemental magic changes, we feel it would be better to address the support difference by enabling other jobs to offer more ways to enhance the capabilities of magic users. Also, we do not have any plans to reduce the casting time or recast time any further than what was listed due to the fact that the average damage will increase and it will also be possible to deal good damage with tier II and III spells. We are also planning to make adjustments to “-ga” and “-ja” type spells following these guidelines as well. Similarly, we are planning to make adjustments to ancient magic, slightly deviating from these guidelines. | ||||||
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Will it be only DRK? What do they mean by defense? Def gears? MDT/PDT? Shell/Pro/phalanx? That means you won't use DRK/WAR anymore because of last resort and berserk, or you won't use last resort anymore while other jobs could use it for 15% haste? I'm lost...
Ok so I dont know much about 1.0 modifiers etc. But does this mean weapon skills like vorpal blade at 300% tp will become usefull again ?
Did you really have to quote the whole thing Detzu?
Would be if they fixed our spells. :/
Still a very nice change though.
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
occurs to me that I haven't even considered that attack down spells and weaponskills may become useful too
Still a very nice change though.
Shiva.Arana said: »
Did you really have to quote the whole thing Detzu?
Would be if they fixed our spells. :/
Still a very nice change though.
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
occurs to me that I haven't even considered that attack down spells and weaponskills may become useful too
Still a very nice change though.
Sorry, I just woke up when I saw this and I had an emo reaction :/
Quote:
Blue Mage is only good against lower level mobs (legacy events, Abyssea), though some of what they've said might help a little bit, if they lower some mobs' levels, and increase one-handed melee damage.
Blue Mage is good for a helluva lot more then that. NNI, Meebles and Salvage II are events that I frequently bring BLU to. BLU is good for any event where your primary targets will be EM~VT and where your not receiving double BRD + COR buffs. This makes them not an option for super zergs (Legion, Prov Watcher, T6 Voidwatch, Odin II) but incredibly useful for dungeon type events. BLU/WAR is the swiss army knife of FFXI, you don't know how useful it is until you've run with a good one and then you end up noticing when it's not present.
I don't get why they nerf only DRK's def.
Cerberus.Detzu said: »
I don't get why they nerf only DRK's def.
Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Quote:
Blue Mage is only good against lower level mobs (legacy events, Abyssea), though some of what they've said might help a little bit, if they lower some mobs' levels, and increase one-handed melee damage.
Blue Mage is good for a helluva lot more then that. NNI, Meebles and Salvage II are events that I frequently bring BLU to. BLU is good for any event where your primary targets will be EM~VT and where your not receiving double BRD + COR buffs. This makes them not an option for super zergs (Legion, Prov Watcher, T6 Voidwatch, Odin II) but incredibly useful for dungeon type events. BLU/WAR is the swiss army knife of FFXI, you don't know how useful it is until you've run with a good one and then you end up noticing when it's not present.
This stance in general is where I feel a lot of 1 handers take something for granted. One big *** mob, usually requires the 2 handers, multiple mobs killed in a timely fashion, that is where your 1 handers shine. Dynamis, Limbus 1 and 2, salvage 1 and 2, Nyzul 1 and 1, meebles and moblins, assaults, every 75 cap event, abyssea, the list goes on and on. Compare all that to what, legion, VWNMS, and.... something new in SoA? Just saying, the game was designed around being able to swap jobs for a reason. I started leveling mnk just to get in with salvage back in the day. I have at least 1 2 hander sorta leveled, I have TH. Don't try and be a one trick pony.
I have a friend that has all 3 roles covered very well in limiting himself to only 3 jobs. DRK BLU and SCH. And this guy knows his ***and is a pro at all 3 of them, and he is cool with that. Anyway, that last point really had no bearing on the conversation, but wanted to show respect to my man Muras.
Leviathan.Draugo said: »
Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Quote:
Blue Mage is only good against lower level mobs (legacy events, Abyssea), though some of what they've said might help a little bit, if they lower some mobs' levels, and increase one-handed melee damage.
Blue Mage is good for a helluva lot more then that. NNI, Meebles and Salvage II are events that I frequently bring BLU to. BLU is good for any event where your primary targets will be EM~VT and where your not receiving double BRD + COR buffs. This makes them not an option for super zergs (Legion, Prov Watcher, T6 Voidwatch, Odin II) but incredibly useful for dungeon type events. BLU/WAR is the swiss army knife of FFXI, you don't know how useful it is until you've run with a good one and then you end up noticing when it's not present.
This stance in general is where I feel a lot of 1 handers take something for granted. One big *** mob, usually requires the 2 handers, multiple mobs killed in a timely fashion, that is where your 1 handers shine. Dynamis, Limbus 1 and 2, salvage 1 and 2, Nyzul 1 and 1, meebles and moblins, assaults, every 75 cap event, abyssea, the list goes on and on. Compare all that to what, legion, VWNMS, and.... something new in SoA? Just saying, the game was designed around being able to swap jobs for a reason. I started leveling mnk just to get in with salvage back in the day. I have at least 1 2 hander sorta leveled, I have TH. Don't try and be a one trick pony.
I have a friend that has all 3 roles covered very well in limiting himself to only 3 jobs. DRK BLU and SCH. And this guy knows his ***and is a pro at all 3 of them, and he is cool with that. Anyway, that last point really had no bearing on the conversation, but wanted to show respect to my man Muras.
I believe the primary complaint is that most super content *now* is 2H onry. Big LS type stuff, namely Legion and Odin II with Prov Watcher and T6 VW being PUG content. Meebles and Salvage II are semi-recent additions where the rewards aren't exactly the best. NNI offers some of the best gear in the game but requires a very specific setup and most people confuse it's requirements with that of Legion. You still need at least two 2H DD's for NNI, mostly for rapidly taking down boss's and NM's.
DRK's have always taken considerably more DMG back at 75, so saying only DRK defence is being nerfed isn't accurate. Another thing to look at is what event is drk used in? do they need defence? Don't most of the events using DRK involve ZERGs and therefore PD?
2ndly as drk using LR will provide JA haste why does it have to be a win win? surely there needs to be balance such as subbing nin over war for more defence/Shadows? The entire idea to my understanding was to bring more strategic play to the game so this being said... NIN provides more survivability and less attack and DW, DNC provides a different aspect in as much as DW cures and Haste Samba, WAR provides more ATT/berserk and DA, DRK provides ATT, LR, JA haste (more than dnc considerably) and ofc ZERK and LR provide considerable def down. How is this any different? WAR and DRK both recieve more DMG using their respective JA it will just be a stronger effect (a double edged sword so to speak)
There will be no DMG reduction incurred from monster levels, which will increase all our DMG dealt, and in turn will lower overall DMG sustained from enemies, so the increased DMG from using JA may be more than other jobs, but will it be as detrimental as we're all thinking? Granted from monsters our own level or weaker than us, yes there will be a noted increase in DMG recieved, assuming this is not an effect only linked to Aldoulin (Not entirely sure on that what with translations etc) but from content that actually matters all I'm seeing is more ways to fight content while reducing our DMG sustained, UNLESS Monsters have rediculous HIGH attack and we've been protected by the Monster level correction.....
SE wouldn't be that evil would they?....
2ndly as drk using LR will provide JA haste why does it have to be a win win? surely there needs to be balance such as subbing nin over war for more defence/Shadows? The entire idea to my understanding was to bring more strategic play to the game so this being said... NIN provides more survivability and less attack and DW, DNC provides a different aspect in as much as DW cures and Haste Samba, WAR provides more ATT/berserk and DA, DRK provides ATT, LR, JA haste (more than dnc considerably) and ofc ZERK and LR provide considerable def down. How is this any different? WAR and DRK both recieve more DMG using their respective JA it will just be a stronger effect (a double edged sword so to speak)
There will be no DMG reduction incurred from monster levels, which will increase all our DMG dealt, and in turn will lower overall DMG sustained from enemies, so the increased DMG from using JA may be more than other jobs, but will it be as detrimental as we're all thinking? Granted from monsters our own level or weaker than us, yes there will be a noted increase in DMG recieved, assuming this is not an effect only linked to Aldoulin (Not entirely sure on that what with translations etc) but from content that actually matters all I'm seeing is more ways to fight content while reducing our DMG sustained, UNLESS Monsters have rediculous HIGH attack and we've been protected by the Monster level correction.....
SE wouldn't be that evil would they?....
Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
You still need at least two 2H DD's for NNI, mostly for rapidly taking down boss's and NM's.
Fenrir.Sylow said: »
2h weapons should have a severe accuracy penalty or something. It has to be harder to swing a great axe and hit something than to stab it with a dagger!
You should try out an Apocalypse sometime.
You'll miss Catastrophe 5 times in a row when you need it the most. :D
Even 95% ACC is'nt enough, need moar!
Pretty sure I missed an Exenterator the other day, so I feel you.
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