Paladin FAQ, Info, And Trade Studies.

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Paladin FAQ, Info, and Trade Studies.
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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2011-11-29 21:36:46
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With DRK/PLD 95, you could get up to 182 skill. (PLD 47, 144+8+7+3+10+10. Merits, torque, earring, boxer's,acheron shield.)

But I suspect that 37 additional skill will probly still not unfloor you.

I'd suggest going to a poor skill ranked 95 job.(I don't know what other jobs are available to you, so these suggestions are a bit blind.)

So, options are; Thf or RDM at F rank skill(249), BST at E rank(280), WHM at D rank(310), and WAR at C+(350).

Between THF and RDM, it'd have to be RDM. THF can't wear any size 3 shields. Although they can wear Tatami if you want a size 4 test. RDM can wear Sentinel Shield, Ice Shield, and Acheron shield for size 3.

So, a test on RDM 95 would put you at 257 skill(249+8). Or a 112 skill over the last test. 100 skill even would have been better, but I think this makes a decent point to retest at.
 Ifrit.Showmo
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By Ifrit.Showmo 2011-11-29 22:33:55
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Alright, its been bugging me for a while now, so I'm gonna take a stab at what the shield block rate formula could possibly look like. Feel free to suggest your own ideas/formula hypotheses or add on/adjust my suggested one.

NOTE: This is only a rigid model I came up with for the current data/numbers we've gathered thus far. It'll obviously need tweaking & adjusting as it likely won't be anything near the actual formula, but it's a starting point at least.

Shield_Base_Rate + ((Shield_Skill / 4) - (Mob_Level / 0.5))

Shield_Base_Rate would be a value based on the shield's size. For example, a size 4 Tower Shield would have a lower Shield_Base_Rate value, thus an initial lower block rate.

Using the above model, here is my example from my most recent parses (link):
Shield Skill: 404
Mob Level: 95
Shield: Aegis (95)

Let's assume Aegis's Shield_Base_Rate is 142.
142 + ((404 / 4) - (95 / 0.5))
142 + ((101) - (190))
142 + (-89)
53% Block Rate

Now if we adjust the mob's level to 90 but keep Shield Skill at 404:
142 + ((404 / 4) - (90 / 0.5))
142 + ((101) - (180))
142 + ((101) - (180))
142 + (-79)
63% Block Rate

Now rather than using my own parsed data sets, let's plug in one of Martel's tests from here: Link

The size 3 Gleaming Shield test. We know from a previous test that Aegis has roughly a 5% higher block rate than the size 3 Koenig Shield, so the size 3 Shield_Base_Rate is likely 137 (5 less, as in 5% less). We'll use the Lv.95 sample, since the Lv.90 portion only has about 900~ hits.

Shield Skill: 404
Mob Level: 105?
Shield: Gleaming Shield (Size 3)

137 + ((404 / 4) - (105 / 0.5))
137 + ((101) - (210))
137 + (-109)
28% Block Rate

Martel's tests yielded a 30.49% block rate, which is pretty close from the result we got with the formula. If we change the mob's level to 104 however...

137 + ((404 / 4) - (104 / 0.5))
137 + ((101) - (208))
137 + (-107)
30% Block Rate

This gives us the predicted block rate value from Martel's parse.

I think the (Shield_Skill / 4) part is what may need to be adjusted, since we've observed that shield skill seems to yield different results when the mob's level rises higher than what the shield skill should be at that level. For example, on Decent Challenge & Even Match mobs, 4 shield skill gave a 1% block rate increase while Very Tough mobs required about 5 shield skill to increase block rate by 1%.

As for Ochain... let's refer back to Martel's post here.

Let's assume the mob is Lv.104. From his Lv.95 404 Shield skill test, the block rate parsed at 94.05%. This would suggest that Ochain has a 201 (Edit: Exact value may actually be 200) Shield_Base_Rate, so let's plug in the numbers!

201 + ((404 / 4) - (104 / 0.5))
201 + ((101) - (208))
201 + (-107)
94% Block Rate

Now lets use the +10 (414 total) shield skill portion of the data, which parsed at a 96.5% block rate, & plug the numbers in for the Lv.104 mob:

201 + ((414 / 4) - (104 / 0.5))
201 + ((103.5) - (208))
201 + (-104.5)
96.5% Block Rate

Everything seems to check out. We'll need to gather more data & tweak the formula a bit, as I'm sure things could change a bit for the lower levels, or different level thresholds.

What are everyone else's thoughts about the shield block rate formula?
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2011-11-29 22:56:51
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For some good mathy opinions, you might try reposting(or just linking)this in the Mathy parts redux forum on BG. Probly in the Random Facts thread. There's some good math ppl over there who could give a better analysis/opinion on your formula than I could.

I think it looks pretty good. But I'm math stupid. If anything is off, I probly won't catch it. ^^;

btw... Dear SE, Give us an accurate way to tell the lvl(and maybe stats too?) of mobs! My test mob very well could have been lvl 104, not 105. I just went with the highest eva mob I could get to pop. And assumed 105 based on the GoV page info.
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-11-30 15:01:19
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God, still time before 99 gear comes out, but looking at the test server dats, we're talking about major reworks on every build. Also looks like Almace got slapped pretty hard by the new WS (and Mythic just got a nice large bump with new WS).

Overall, new "best gear" and sidegrades for every slot.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2011-11-30 15:24:57
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Still pissed that it's a damn MND mod, but we'll see how it is.
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By Bahamut.Krizz 2011-11-30 15:54:43
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Phoenix.Neosutra said: »
God, still time before 99 gear comes out, but looking at the test server dats, we're talking about major reworks on every build. Also looks like Almace got slapped pretty hard by the new WS (and Mythic just got a nice large bump with new WS).

Overall, new "best gear" and sidegrades for every slot.
Can you explain what you mean about Almace?
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xxdrake 2011-11-30 15:59:20
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New sword ws beats cdc from what ive seen outside abyssea which should put excal in a pure dd sesne above almace now right ?
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-11-30 16:05:37
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Basically:

Almace shined in pure DD/enmity generation in it's ~20% higher WS value over Vorpal and the ODD (about 30% at 100 tp).

The new WS appears to outdo CDC by a good margin, and can be used with any weapon (higher base damage weapons since it's rare you're going to take Almace above 90).

It puts Burtgang at the top for DD/Enmity due to OA2/3 stacking with WS and being easily maintained, and puts Excal substantially over Almace. It also makes the difference between just a standard top DD sword (non relic/mythic) and Empyrean rather small, since you're just comparing a better WS to CDC + ODD..

Not to say Almace is trash or will be useless, since you can still open with CDC, and ride 300tp ODD rate while spamming the new WS.

Just looks like now that the order is:

Burtgang99 > Excal99 >>>> Almace > Other.

Edit: The way the ftp/Modifers are working out on these, MND mod might not be too bad tbh Martel. Most of the slots we have can easily fit good attack/fstr/mnd mod peices without too much trouble. Though having to carry CDC build + New WS build ontop of already stacked inventory and all the new 99 side grade gear makes my head spin...
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2011-11-30 17:26:51
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Phoenix.Neosutra said: »
Just looks like now that the order is:

Burtgang99 > Excal99 >>>> Almace > Other.

Edit: The way the ftp/Modifers are working out on these, MND mod might not be too bad tbh Martel. Most of the slots we have can easily fit good attack/fstr/mnd mod peices without too much trouble. Though having to carry CDC build + New WS build ontop of already stacked inventory and all the new 99 side grade gear makes my head spin...
As much as I love my Almace, this is kinda what I'd expect the order to be simply based on effort to obtain. Also, is this based on a 99 Almace? I still have hopes that updates will make heavy metal a bit easier to access and hope the 99 trial isn't too much of a ***.
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By Bahamut.Krizz 2011-11-30 17:27:34
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Phoenix.Neosutra said: »
Though having to carry CDC build + New WS build ontop of already stacked inventory and all the new 99 side grade gear makes my head spin...
Hopefully we will see additional gobbie bag quests to go with the gear improvements.
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By Ifrit.Showmo 2011-11-30 18:28:35
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Doing some low level tests now, & I found an error in my above formula: the Shield_Base_Rate doesn't work at all with the lower levels. Perhaps it scales based on the mob's level or your shield skill?

Currently, I'm doing level 20 sync tests with Aegis & Ochain. The test is being done on an Even Match Crane Fly. According to the Wikipedia Check page, an Even Match is the same level as you, so we know that this Crane Fly is Lv.20. If we follow the formula for Aegis with a level 20's shield skill of 67:

142 + ((67 / 4) - (20 / 0.5))
142 + ((16.75) - (40))
142 + ((16.75) - (40))
142 + (-23.25)
118.75% Block Rate, which is inaccurate as this would put Aegis at the 75% cap. With a sample size of 2,132 hits, my block rate parsed at 39.63%. This would put Aegis (95) at a 63 Shield_Base_Rate under these conditions. With the new Shield_Base_Rate:

63 + ((67 / 4) - (20 / 0.5))
63 + ((16.75) - (40))
63 + (-23.25)
39.75% Block Rate

The rest of the formula seems to follow through quite well (only a 0.12% difference from the data once Shield_Base_Rate was adjusted). I wonder if there's a pattern to calculate the Shield_Base_Rate, or perhaps something is wrong in the formula all together?

Now here's what surprised me the most: Ochain (90) under level 20 sync kept its outstanding block rate; my block rate was at 100% for 203 hits until I decided that this was enough to conclude that even while synced, the shields still keep their special Shield_Base_Rate traits, which means that Aegis should also have its +5% higher block rate than standard size 3 shields while under the effect of level sync as well. This also means we could level sync below Lv.90 to test the mechanics of Ochain's block rate without losing anything block rate-related except for shield skill.

Now for the compiled data below:

My Job/Level: PLD20/WAR10

Shields: Aegis (95), Ochain (90)

Shield Skill: 67 (Includes 4/4 Shield Skill Merits, No extra skill+ gear was used).

Buffs: Level Sync

Equipment remained static for each parse. No gear swaps mid parse.

Mob: Crane Fly, Even Match (Lv.20)


Aegis
Hits: 2,132
Blocks: 845
Block Rate: 39.63%

Ochain
Hits: 203
Blocks: 203
Block Rate: 100%

Parse Data
 Ifrit.Showmo
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By Ifrit.Showmo 2011-12-01 01:30:51
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I did a few more low level tests on the same Lv.20 Crane Fly. Since level 20s PLD doesn't have access to any shield skill gear, & any gear that has skill above level 20 wasn't counted due to the level sync, I synced to two other levels & ran parses. Since we know from Martel's testing that player's own level has no effect on block rate, this is theoretically the same as "adding and subtracting" shield skill to examine the effects.

Data for both parses:

Shield: Aegis (95)

Buffs: Level Sync

Equipment remained static for each parse. No gear swaps mid parse.

Mob: Crane Fly (Lv.20)


Parse #1: PLD22/WAR11
Shield Skill: 73

Hits: 2,165
Blocks: 896
Block Rate: 41.39%

Shield Skill Difference from Lv.20: 6
Block Rate Difference: 1.76%
This suggests that 1 skill granted 0.2933% block rate.

The hits in this parse sample for this are so close together that its hard to tell apart from the blocks & unblocks, so I did a parse with my back facing the mob to see the hit ranges, which ended up being 10-21 for non crits. From the previous parse, we saw that 9 damage was the highest for blocked hits, and since the level for this parse is now Lv.22, we can safely assume that blocked damage taken wouldn't increase above 9. Since no unblocked hits landed in the 9 damage area, we can differentiate between the two.

Parse #2: PLD10/WAR05
Shield Skill: 35

Hits: 1,847
Blocks: 648
Block Rate: 35.08%

Shield Skill Difference from Lv.20: 32
Block Rate Difference: 4.55%
This suggests that 1 skill granted 0.1421875% Block Rate.

Comparing Highest & Lowest Levels
Shield Skill Difference for Lv.10 & Lv.22: 38
Block Rate Difference: 6.31%
This suggests that 1 skill granted 0.1660% Block Rate.

Thoughts? It seems odd that Lv.20 & Lv.22 skill jump increased block rate by a whole 1.76%, meaning 1 skill would grant roughly +0.29% block rate (which means +3 shield skill would almost net you a +1% block rate, being 0.10% shy), while the jump from Lv.10 to Lv.20 & Lv.22 seems to net around +0.15% block rate per shield skill (which means you would need +6 shield skill to almost hit +1% block rate. You would be 0.10% shy). Although this could be due to variation, the gap seems a bit wide for a 1,800-2,000 sample size.

Parse Data
PLD22/WAR11 (73 Shield Skill)
PLD10/WAR05 (35 Shield Skill)
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2011-12-01 04:17:25
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Yep, shield size doesn't sync. It's roughly the equivalent of weapon delay. It determines the mechanics of the piece, and it wouldn't make sense to turn a polearm in to a dagger(delay wise) at lower levels.

What Does sync, however, is the def. Which has an impact on the block dmg reduction. This is why there was so little difference between block and unblock hits with Aegis in your test. You're losing ~20% block dmg reduction, depending on how much def is being lost to lvl sync.

Aegis has much higher block dmg reduction than Ochain. But they have the same def. So that difference comes from Aegis' shield size, which won't sync.

Under sync, Ochain could lose as much as a third of it's block dmg reduction, possibly pushing it into the dmg overlap range. Although, if managed to not overlap when it's def was synced down to 1, you could use that as a way to confirm it's base block dmg reduction.

Anyway.

I'm not certain how to explain the block difference between the lvl 10 and 20 samples. Maybe block rate works differently when you're as low as lvl 10? All the numbers are on a much, much smaller scale at lvl 10. And my test showing player lvl's lack of impact on shield block rate was lvl 90~95.

It is kinda interesting that you had 35% block rate, and 35 skill in the lvl 10 sample. It's probly just a coincidence, though. Kinda hard to change your skill to test more. Could go to a high/lower lvl mob and observe any changes. Might show something.
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By Ifrit.Showmo 2011-12-01 16:35:26
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Doing another Lv.10 parse but on a Even Match mob (so also Lv.10), I'll have the data posted soon when I get at least a 2,000+ sample size. In the meantime, I was looking at something interesting:

The sample up above (link) has Aegis (95) sitting at about 42% damage reduction from blocks on the Lv.22 test. I didn't get a chance to check how much DEF Aegis (95) gave at Lv.22, but for Lv.10 unequipping it & equipping it yields 2 DEF.

The known shield reduction formula is as follows:
Damage_Absorption = BASE + Shield_Defense / 2 [Source]

The norm DEF for Lv.20-22 shields appear to be 4, 5, & 6. Since the damage reduction above reports roughly a 42% reduction, I would assume the DEF at Lv.22 is either 4 or 5, adding a +2% reduction on blocks. So would this mean Aegis's base damage reduction is 40%? I don't think that seems right, considering Aegis is known to have at least a 75% damage reduction at Lv.75. With 40 DEF, the formula would yield a +20% extra damage reduction, which would put Aegis at 60% overall reduction. Perhaps level sync is doing something to the base reduction after all, rather than a DEF cut only?
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2011-12-01 17:02:20
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Well, firstly, if you want an accurate dmg reduction value, I'd recommend finding something that hits harder. Although I can see the issues with mobs hitting much harder when you're lvl ~20.

One of my low lvl mob tests with a low dmg taken per hit, had Gleaming Shield's block dmg reduction at 90%. Pretty clearly, that Cannot be correct.

A different sample on Mourning crawlers(they hit like trains) had Gleaming's block dmg- at 66%.

Although, in this case a low per hit dmg, resulted in a higher than expected dmg-. Whereas you're getting a lower one.

The current shield def/dmg reduction formula is old, and accepted. I'm not sure how intensive the original testing was. Maybe things don't work quite like we thought.

Or maybe lvl sync is somehow messing with the block dmg-. But it seems very strange to me, that Ochain's block rate wouldn't take a hit, but base dmg- would. They're derived from the same stat. Shield size.
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By Bahamut.Krizz 2011-12-01 17:03:14
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I wouldn't be surprised if level sync is borking something.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2011-12-01 17:19:30
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It could just be that def counts for more than we thought it did.
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By Ifrit.Showmo 2011-12-01 17:38:41
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Well, firstly, if you want an accurate dmg reduction value, I'd recommend finding something that hits harder. Although I can see the issues with mobs hitting much harder when you're lvl ~20.

One of my low lvl mob tests with a low dmg taken per hit, had Gleaming Shield's block dmg reduction at 90%. Pretty clearly, that Cannot be correct.

A different sample on Mourning crawlers(they hit like trains) had Gleaming's block dmg- at 66%.
Ah, this makes sense. Checked up on the damage reduction for the Lv.10 parse (link), & the reduction for that is reporting about 54.71%-55.30%, likely because more damage was being taken per hit. A 55% base would make more sense when you plug it into the formula for Lv.75+:

Damage_Absorption = BASE + Shield_Defense / 2
Damage_Absorption = 55 + 40 / 2
Damage_Absorption = 55 + 20
Damage_Absorption = 75%

Will obviously need more testing though on harder hitting mobs. Level 75 tests would probably be a good range to see the effects without Shield Def. Bonus as well. Was it ever confirmed if Shield Def. Bonus was a -2.5% damage reduction added on to existing reduction or just a flat damage- (akin to Phalanx)?
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By Ifrit.Showmo 2011-12-01 19:55:16
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Here's the other Lv.10 parse data as promised:

My Job/Level: PLD10/WAR05

Shield: Aegis (95)

Shield Skill: 35 (Includes 4/4 Shield Skill Merits, No extra skill+ gear was used)

Buffs: Level Sync

Equipment remained static for each parse. No gear swaps mid parse.

Mob: Grotto Bats (Even Match, Lv.10)


Hits: 2,430
Blocks: 911
Block Rate: 37.49%

It's very interesting to note that from a previous parse (link) with the same 35 shield skill but on a mob 10 levels higher (Lv.20), block rate parsed at 35.08%. There was only a +2.41% block rate gain by switching to a weaker mob by 10 whole levels. This would suggest that there is a 0.241% block rate difference per 1 level, which is completely different from the level 90+ tests, which suggests a 2% block rate difference per 1 level. I think it's safe to say that shield block rate mechanics definitely work a lot differently for the lower levels.

Parse Data
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-12-01 21:24:03
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Perhaps not differently at lower levels, but differently when you're above the mob level and when the mob level is above you.
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By Ifrit.Showmo 2011-12-01 21:39:02
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Phoenix.Neosutra said: »
Perhaps not differently at lower levels, but differently when you're above the mob level and when the mob level is above you.
I'm not sure if our own level even has an effect on block rates. One of Martel's tests (link) showed that lowering his level from 95 to 90 yielded the same block rate result when he matched his shield skill with skill levels he had at Lv.95 via shield skill gear.

Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Summaries and conclusions

Firstly, Ochain.
Code
LVL90
gear+	+0		+5		+10		+15		+20		+25		+30		+35		+40		+45		+50		+52
SKILL	369		374		379		384		389		394		399		404		409		414		419		421
Block%	86.2%	86.92%	88.29%	90.12%	91.16%	91.14%	93.59%	94.18%	95.12%	95.66%	97.47%	97.51%

LVL95
gear+	+0		+5		+10		+15		+20		+25		+26		+27		+28		+29
SKILL	404		409		414		419		424		429		430		431		432		433
Block%	94.05%	94.73%	96.5%	97.1%	98.11%	99.51%	99.55%	99.77%	99.92%	100%

Comparison
Skill		369		374		379		384		389		394		399		404		409		414		419		421		424		429		430		431		432		433
90block%	86.2%	86.92%	88.29%	90.12%	91.16%	91.14%	93.59%	94.18%	95.12%	95.66%	97.47%	97.51%	
95block%															94.05%	94.73%	96.5%	97.1%			98.11%	99.51%	99.55%	99.77%	99.92%	100%						
Difference															0.13	0.39	0.84	0.37

Player level and block rate
The thing that grabbed my immediate attention here was the overlapping skill samples between the 90 and 95 tests. The 404~419 sets had nearly identical block rates, with less than 1% variance going either way. This pretty much confirms to me, that actual player level has no direct effect on block rate. It's only the higher skill caps, thus higher skill that makes gaining lvls help block rate.

...

Skill and Block Rate, again
This leaves our shield formula with only two factors. Skill and mob level.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2011-12-01 21:42:10
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I should probly try that test in reverse, when I'm a higher lvl than the mob, to make sure it works both ways.

But yeah, as far as I can tell, player lvl doesn't directly affect block rate.
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-12-01 22:33:11
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I still find that result suspect until we verify it some more to be honest. It could be a correlation with how much block rate adds based on your level (meaning the higher skill at 90 relative to your base skill gave you a block rate consistent with lvl 95 with same skill). Or something to do with lvl sync (if you synced for that test).

And yes we do need to test both ways.
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By Fenrir.Minjo 2011-12-01 22:37:22
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Phoenix.Neosutra said: »
And yes we do need to test both ways.

...go on '~'
[+]
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By Ifrit.Showmo 2011-12-02 03:22:12
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Finished another lower level block parse, this time with Lv.48 & Lv.43 shield skill ranges on a Lv.48 mob.

Data for both parses:

Shield: Aegis (95)

Buffs: Level Sync

Equipment remained static for each parse. No gear swaps mid parse.

Mob: Hawker (Lv.48)


Parse #1: PLD48/WAR24
Shield Skill: 155

Hits: 2,201
Blocks: 1,111
Block Rate: 50.48%

Parse #2: PLD43/WAR21
Shield Skill: 140

Hits: 2,514
Blocks: 1,269
Block Rate: 50.48%

...and a 0% block rate change after 15 skill difference? I had to recalculate both samples twice just to make sure I wasn't mixing them up somehow. Sure enough, both of them report 50.48% again. The only two things that come to mind is that there was either a freakish shift of variance in one of the samples or there is a block rate cap occurring somewhere around these specific skill levels for a Lv.48 mob. Parse data is below.

Parse Data
PLD48/WAR24 (155 Shield Skill)
PLD43/WAR21 (140 Shield Skill)
 Bahamut.Krizz
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user: Krizz
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By Bahamut.Krizz 2011-12-02 06:10:42
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SE just has to keep things complicated..
 Carbuncle.Lynxblade
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By Carbuncle.Lynxblade 2011-12-02 07:07:27
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so Im using mercurial sword on my pld to skill up, would sword strap be the best grip, if you have capped haste?, cause i think i herd somewhere that lower delay either messes up your haste, or store tp.

Im not trying to do dmg, im just trying to swing as fast as possible...
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2011-12-02 07:10:41
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Lowering delay changes your tp gain/hit, which can mess with hit builds. Whereas haste doesn't. For skill up purposes it would be the best grip.
 Bahamut.Krizz
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By Bahamut.Krizz 2011-12-02 07:11:10
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Carbuncle.Lynxblade said: »
so Im using mercurial sword on my pld to skill up, would sword strap be the best grip, if you have capped haste?, cause i think i herd somewhere that lower delay either messes up your haste, or store tp.

Im not trying to do dmg, im just trying to swing as fast as possible...
It can affect your TP gain from swings due to putting you at the lower delay. Not an issue while skilling up.

Edit: Beat while making sure I wasn't talking out of my ***. :(
 Carbuncle.Lynxblade
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By Carbuncle.Lynxblade 2011-12-02 07:13:55
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I baught this merc sword for 600k a few years ago, thinking about selling it after i cap gsword on pld at 99 lol,

although herculean slashing spam in aby can be pretty fun....
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