SAM/MNK Tank

at level 90.



Enhances "Seigan" effect:
* Gives you a chance to Counter without Third Eye being active.



Augments "Third Eye" effect
* Gives the ability to counter when you anticipate an attack with Third Eye. Also, if you are using Seigan, your counter rate is increased by 15%.


Useful job abilities:
Boost*
Dodge
Focus
Chakra
Counterstance*

Useful job traits:
Counter*
Max HP boost II
Subtle blow III*


I am interested on trying SAM90/MNK45 for tanking next update. With all the gear that help us tank already, subbing MNK would increase the effectiveness furthermore. Could use Third eye whenever its up or use it immediately before a TP move. Either way, damage mitigation should be good between Counterstance and Seigan/Third eye.

It will be interesting to find out if the "Enhance Seigan" from Kabuto stacks with Counterstance. Assuming they don't nerf the JA's ~50% counter rate when using MNK as sub. Boost will significantly increase/help Fudo/Kaiten damage. It's almost like a fulltime Berserk on weaponskills.

I'm not saying this will replace /NIN on some situations but it will definately replace /WAR for tanking.

What do you guys think?

wouldn't sam/nin be somewhat better? cuz you can put up third eye when shadows are down, and you can get nuked by magic and be saved by shadows unlike being nuked by third eye and taking a beating

but sam/mnk might be good against a mob that attacks in fast succession where shadows are kinda pointless

Depends on what you're tanking really. Counterstance pretty much auto caps PDIF for any mob attacking you. If you get one of those shitty third eyes where it only blocks once, you'll be in some trouble.

It'll be a situational sub, depending on what you're tanking.

As for boost, keep in mind you don't get the AF gloves bonus, so it's more like a fulltime warcry for ws rather than berserk.

Hmm yea that should well work. Will be funny to work it out.

Also keep in mind you don't get af2 shoes for counterstance, so knock off 10% from the counter rate.

That and counter merits, but I'd like to see if the counter from "Enhance Seigan" from Unkai kabuto +2 stacks with counter/counterstance.

You are right about warcry, I was thinking Berserk was attack+15% instead of +25%...


Edit: Isn't counterstance at ~45% counter rate before gear(including AF2 feet) and merits anyways? That is still pretty high from a subjob.

/WAR deals with shitty third eyes already though, thats what -PDT set is for. /NIN is still irreplaceable but a lot of NMs nowadays won't even give you a chance to keep shadows up.

For single target spells of course /nin is better, but Agas don't wipe Third eye. So both have disadvantages. On any event I don't have shadows up due to messed up recast timer from slow, muted etc., I would switch to -MDT/MDEF gear before taking nukes.

Ancient magic and high tier single target nuke are slow enough to stun with Hobaku or Blade bash anyways, specially with Addle on.

It won't, it's a different effect, similar to Perfect Counter, a check will be run for that counter proc, then a check for Counterstance. Boost is pretty weak without MNK gloves, 12.5% increase to attack, not even close to Berserk. Capping enemy pDif could hurt too, even with PDT gear.

yeah agas don't whipe third eye cuz third eye doesn't absorb magic dmg...but if you have support and additional stuns then i suppose that would work~

Sry I understand your trying new things but wth /mnk come on now you do better /blu or *** /rdm.

/mnk was only good back in the day... (when 6 jobs were only available.)

Its a good thought but nah..you wouldn't be PTing w/ me with that sub.

lol

Oh and btw your sam looks very nice on your page.

Thanks for the all the inputs, I still and will keep using /NIN for duo or low-man situations.

But for LS abyssea event I might try /MNK out. All the magic spam trying to hit Grellow !! will make the NMs spam TP moves anyways. So /NIN is kinda wasted, I find myself blood/seigan tanking a lot when I keep getting spammed with TP moves from mobs like Sandworm(silence, slow, full dispell). After hitting Grellow !!, it'll take us about 30-60 seconds to kill the NM with some badass WARs and Fudo spam. So I can't even enjoy the non-TP spamming NM and /NIN doesn't matter at this point.

Yeah, SAM/MNK could be useful.

I think the problem you're encountering here with some readers is that certain people think you want to "replace" SAM/NIN with SAM/MNK, which you're obviously not trying to do.

Rather, you're presenting an alternative, and in my opinion, a potentially viable one.
I've personally been using SAM/WAR with Atma of the Gnarled Horn and Atma of the Strangling Wind to Seigan/Third Eye tank Abyssea mobs. Between dodges, parries, and counters, I definitely take less damage (and do more damage) than I would casting Utsusemis, especially considering how often Abyssea mobs (in general) use spells and TP moves that wipe shadows.

I agree that SAM/MNK will be useful for tanking (like anything else) if a player gears and uses the job abilities appropriately. SAM/NIN will still be useful for mobs that have high delay, use mainly single-target nukes/spells, and/or mainly use TP moves that consume (not wipe) multiple shadows.

SAM/MNK for MNK Mobs doesn't sound bad... Not like shadows help for those.

I wish kick Attacks procced on any weapon lol.

GK Slash, Slash, Kick to the face!

Counter didn't seem to proc much though :(

Thank you!!! I will never replace /NIN, because I like blink tanking. And I have more gear for Ninjitsu spellcasting than anything else (Fast cast/Spell interrupt(+36%)/PDT). This will sound weird but I also have a collection of low-man parses where I blink 100% of physical/blinkable attacks and I take pride in them. >_> Flawless victory? lol

But like you said about Abyssea NMs that spams TP moves that wipe shadows. Which only makes me look HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE taking too much damage while on /NIN. That's why I got interested on trying an effective SJ that has more damage mitigation than /WAR but doesn't rely on shadow casting.

what will /rdm will do but phalanx? since all debuff don't generate any hate now and i rather have a sch keeping buffs on me

For newer Abyssea, we don't try to kill faster. We try to hit grellow, red or Blue !! first. Killing fast is no problem, we already mastered this part. WAR go all out and I Fudo spam, Any NMs including top tiers(except Attowha sandworm) won't last a minute. Stalwart's drink + red curry bun caps my attack w/o needing berserk.

My main concern was taking less damage while waiting for grellow/blue/red !! to get triggered.

Like the NM Nonno.....

you can't just kite it for a while?

I'm pretty sure /MNK is not going to beat /WAR. There are several reasons why I think so:

1. If you're talking mostly about Abyssea, in my experience, minikin monstrosity on a RDM/SCH is all you need to keep yourself alive on SAM/WAR. Last night, we killed Amhuluk with SAM/WAR + RDM/SCH and the RDM never arrived in MP trouble with Carabosse + Minikin atmas nor did she ever get hate.

2. Counterstance penalty is too big: If you're going to melee in your TP gear, you're going to get hit for a massive amount every time. If you decide to melee in your DEF set during counterstance, you're going to lose accuracy, decreasing the accuracy of countering at all.

Basically, if you're going to stay in TP gear to do counterstance, you're going to sponge more than /WAR or /NIN. And if you're going to stay in defense gear, you're going to get hit about the same amount as if you're in TP gear on WAR, except on WAR, you're going to have a lot more haste.

So you're if your question is basically, whether you'll counter enough to save your mages MP, probably not. If your question is whether you can counter enough to out damage /WAR, you'll have to test counter rate (/mob attack speed) to mathmatically prove that. You'll also have to consider that you dont' get TP back for countering.

This is what I do when I tank on MNK in Abyssea, I engage with counterstance up > use Ascetic's Fury > eat dinner, brush my teeth, take a *** > come back and I'm still alive and still have hate. This is of course while waiting for people to trigger Grellow !!. Why are people so concerned about counterstance penalty? Most NMs already hit like a truck with or with out counterstance. So I will be taking massive amount of damage either way.

Now if the mob's attack is weak enough for the counterstance penatly to matter. Then it's a mob that you don't tank, it's a mob that you kill in a few seconds.

MNK will have ~15% more counter rate than /MNK. /MNK will still get around +45%~50% assuming there is no subjob penalty.

It's not like I'm suggesting to rely on counter 100% of the time, I will still be using Seigan and Third eye as much as I would use it on /WAR. So while Third eye is down I can rely on counter until Third eye is ready again.

If we are really worried about /MNK and /WAR damage then let's talk about this: Segian + Third eye /WAR vs. Hasso + Counterstance /MNK. Which would deal more DD and take less damage?

I don't need /WAR to help me with damage, My main job take care of that. /sarcasm


Edit: I'm not saying its /MNK is better than /WAR for DD, but when we do Abyssea, we kill 5-10 top tier NMs in one night. I don't have the luxury to change subjob to accommodate to each NMs. So It's nice to have an an option to use a subjob that have the potential of being more defensive than /WAR and more offensive than /NIN. We'll see I guess.

If you're trying to be more defensive than /WAR by subbing /MNK, I think you're not making the right approach (because even if you turtled up, /WAR would take less damage).

However, if you are trying to find something between /NIN and /WAR, yes, you're correct, it is an intermediate, though situational.

/WAR will still be better for versatility.

What? What does war have to offer defensively? On anything that matters, dropping from your normal def to 10% of that isn't going to make any difference in the damage you take.

Honestly, it could work but like others have said, might be better off with /WAR still. RDM or a WHM can keep you healed easily so it shouldnt be a problem.

And, why are you using Atma of the Gnarled Horn and Atma of the Strangling Wind? Dont have RR and VV Atmas? Would think those are better to have and have a healer cure bomb you.