Oberon's Knuckles Vs. Destroyers

yes

shenlongs > destroyers > everything else is ***

What about Relic? >.>

Destroyers are better than Spharai, as long as you don't need the Counter

kill yourself

Forgive my Monkly noobishness, but what about Hades?

I mean I know the 7 Enmity kind of negates the 7 Evasion, and the 7 Subtle Blow, but 6 percent crit increase just doesn't seem like a massive number, and the ACC 7 should at least bring it up as a contender shouldn't it?

Someone help me see the flaws of the Hades vs the Destros.

Destroyers are better than Spharai, as long as you don't need the Counter+.

That's an appropriate response. Coming from someone who can't see why 18 DMG, 48 delay, and Crit+6% is better than 19 DMG and 85 delay? Clearly, you know a lot about MNK.

A contender, yes. But 6% crit rate is still 6%. 7 ACC is only 3.5% increase in hit rate. And the higher delay doesn't help it at all. Even if it is only +3 delay, that's still a 7~% delay increase from Destroyers.

Edit: Making some adjustments and corrections based on miscellaneous objections over time since this post was made.

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Use of 75/25 split for melee/weaponskill isn't the best choice. 70/30 is closer for attentive players, pushing 65/35 with Usu feet and 60/40 with Faiths. As such I'm going to do a slightly more calculated variant.

WSC will tend to be approximately 12 for Asuran. I'm going to assume 20 melee hits per weaponskill (average of about 110 TP per weaponskill). The ratio can then be calculated from:

BD = Base Damage (including fStr)
Melee further adjusted by crit rates. Thus BD * (crit rate * 20) * crit rate enhancement (ie: 2.0 cRatio critting to 3.0 pDiff gives a 3.0/2.0 = 1.5x enhancement multiplier) is added to the total.

Melee = (20 * BD) + (BD * (20 * Crit%) * (CritPDiff/BasePDiff - 1))
Weaponskill = 8 * (BD + 12)

Accuracy and pDiff amounts (as long as they don't change between melee and weaponskill) will cancel out, so we can ignore them.

Later posts need to more properly account for Focus in the value of accuracy.

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Caveat: This is based purely on our (my) understanding of the math of the game. Any flaws in our combat model would directly impact the validity of these estimates. That said...


Are Destroyers really our best weapon?


I know that it's long been held to be a truism for mnk, and I know the mathmatical reasoning for it, but I also know that the math that was used was... 'sloppy' in some ways. Certain things were simply assumed in order to simplify the math when we weren't sure of some of the specifics.

As our understanding of some of the intricacies of the damage formulas has improved, I thought I'd look at how Destroyers fair now, from a theoretical standpoint.


First I want to know how much Destroyers actually improve our damage. For this series of comparisons I'm only looking at d18 weapons, so the improvements will mainly be in the additional bonuses on each weapon. For Destroyers, that's Crit Rate.

I want to know what potential range of improvement +6% crit rate is. We know that the higher your base crit rate the less value additional crit rate has, and we know that the higher your cRatio the less value crits in general have, so I want to look at those two aspects.


Worst Case for Destroyers:

Base crit rate is capped at 20%. We know that this is possible from the crit rate thread. I'll use greater colibri as the targets as they also have relatively low defense, and we can use the high cRatio to further limit the gain of Destroyers.

To affect cRatio, I'll take the base attack provided in the crit thread for the Osode setup (351), add Minuet 4 (+65), Coeurl Sub (+75), Chaos Roll w/Drk (+30%), and Dia III (-15% defense).

Level 81 birds: 322 Defense
w/Dia III: 274 Defense

Attack: 638 total
Base punch damage: 60
Base kick damage: 42

cRatio = (638 / 274) - .3 = 2.03, capped at 2.0

Assume capped Kick Attack merits and Brutal Earring.

Crit rate is 20% + 4% (merits) = 24%

100 attack rounds = 200 punches + 10 DA punches + 17.5 kicks

Baseline:
- punches: 50.4 crit, 159.6 non-crit
- kicks: 4.2 crit, 13.3 non-crit

Base damage: (159.6 * 2.0 * 60) + (50.4 * 3.0 * 60) + (13.3 * 2.0 * 42) + (4.2 * 3.0 * 42) = 29,870

w/Destroyers:
- punches: 63 crit, 147 non-crit
- kicks: 4.2 crit, 13.3 non-crit

Destroyer damage: (147 * 2.0 * 60) + (63 * 3.0 * 60) + (13.3 * 2.0 * 42) + (4.2 * 3.0 * 42) = 30,626


Now, Destroyers have no effect on weaponskill damage (except Ascetic's Fury, but not considering that here).

Edit: New Melee/WS ratio. Ignoring Feather Tickle as a modifying factor.
Melee = (20*60) + (60 * (20 * 24%) * (3/2-1)) = 1,344
WS = 8 * (60+12) = 576
1344/(1344+576) = 70%

Melee/WS split: 70%/30%

Total base damage: 29,870 / .7 = 42,671
Weaponskill damage from that: 12,801
Total Destroyers damage: 30,626 + 12,801 = 43,427

Total improvement with Destroyers: 1.8%

This is the minimum improvement you can expect while using Destroyers (relative to a flat d18/+48 weapon).


Best case for Destroyers (XP):

Body: scorpion harness (no +attack)
Legs: no byakko's haidate (no +dex/crits)

Overall unmodified attack set to 375
No food
No Minuet
No Chaos Roll
No Dia

vs Lvl 82 birds:

cRatio = (375 / 327) - .35 = 0.80

Base punch damage: 56
Base kick damage: 38

Crit rate: 5% (no merits)

Brutal earring, no Kick Attack merits

100 attack rounds = 200 punches + 10 DA punches + 12.5 kicks

Baseline:
- punches: 10.5 crit, 199.5 non-crit
- kicks: .625 crit, 11.875 non-crit

Base damage: (199.5 * 0.80 * 56) + (10.5 * 1.80 * 56) + (11.875 * .80 * 38) + (.625 * 1.80 * 38) = 10,400

w/Destroyers:
- punches: 23.1 crit, 186.9 non-crit
- kicks: .625 crit, 11.875 non-crit

Destroyers damage: (186.9 * 0.80 * 56) + (23.1 * 1.80 * 56) + (11.875 * .80 * 38) + (.625 * 1.80 * 38) = 11,105

Edit: New Melee/WS ratio. Ignoring Feather Tickle as a modifying factor.
Melee = (20*56) + (56 * (20 * .05%) * ((1.8/.8)-1)) = 1,190
WS = 8 * (56+12) = 544
1190/(1190+544) = 68.6% (melee percentage)

Total base damage: 10,400 / .686 = 15,160
Weaponskill damage from that: 4,760
Total Destroyers damage: 11,105 + 4,760 = 15,865

Total improvement with Destroyers: 4.7%


So now we know the possible range of improvement from the +crit rate of using Destroyers (1.8% - 4.7%). I want to add one more data set in a moderate range, fairly good gear (my own) with a 'typical' meat + minuet config.

My own case for Destroyers:

Lvl 82 GColibri:

Attack: 400 + 60 + 65 = 525
Defense: 327 - 10% (Dia II) = 295
cRatio = 1.43

Crit rate: 7% + 4% = 11%

Base punch damage: 57
Base kick damage: 39

Brutal earring
2 KA merits

100 attack rounds = 200 punches + 10 DA punches + 14.5 kicks

Baseline:
- punches: 23.1 crit, 186.9 non-crit
- kicks: 1.595 crit, 12.905 non-crit

Base damage: (186.9 * 1.43 * 57) + (23.1 * 2.43 * 57) + (12.905 * 1.43 * 39) + (1.595 * 2.43 * 39) = 19,305

w/Destroyers:
- punches: 35.7 crit, 174.3 non-crit
- kicks: 1.595 crit, 12.905 non-crit

Destroyers damage: (174.3 * 1.43 * 57) + (35.7 * 2.43 * 57) + (12.905 * 1.43 * 39) + (1.595 * 2.43 * 39) = 20,023

Edit: New Melee/WS ratio. Ignoring Feather Tickle as a modifying factor.
Melee = (20*57) + (57 * (20 * .11%) * ((2.43/1.43)-1)) = 1,228
WS = 8 * (57+12) = 552
1190/(1190+544) = 69% (melee percentage)


Total base damage: 19,305 / .69 = 27,978
@weaponskill damage = 8,673
Total Destroyers damage: 20,023 + 8,673 = 28,696

Total improvement with Destroyers: 2.6%


So, any weapon that can improve damage by at least 2% relative to a d18/+48 weapon is worth looking into. At 3% it's at least as good as Destroyers in some typical XP settings. Any weapon that increases damage by 5% or better relative to a d18/+48 weapon is probably better than Destroyers.


So much for what we want to compare against. I'll put the other weapon comparisons in separate posts to make things a little more tidy.

As requested, Spharai

For this I'm going to have to fudge the 'Triple Proc' damage a little as I don't have solid info on it. From a couple parses I have with a relic holder (not Spharai), I'm putting the proc rate at 7.5%, which is +15% to melee punch damage. I'm uncertain whether it can proc on weaponskill damage, but will treat it as if it does.

d23/+86, +20 attack

Using the three tiers outlined above for Destroyers:

Max Config (worst case):
cRatio is capped, +attack on Spharai would have no effect.
20% base crit rate + 4% (merits)
+7 fStr

Base punch damage = 35 + 23 + 8 = 66
Base kick damage = 42

100 attack rounds = 200 punches + 10 DA punches (Brutal) + 17.5 kicks (5 KA merits)

- punches: 50.4 crit, 159.6 non-crit
- kicks: 4.2 crit, 13.3 non-crit

Melee Damage: (66 * 159.6 * 2.0) * 1.15 + (66 * 50.4 * 3.0) * 1.15 + (42 * 13.3 * 2.0) + (42 * 4.2 * 3.0) = 37,349.76

Assuming 75/25 split for melee/weaponskill, weaponskill damage: 12,449.92

Total damage: 49,799.68

Scaled for delay at 348/386: 44,897.12

Base d18/+48 total: 39,827.2

Difference: +12.7%



Moderate Config

Attack: 525 (base) + 20 = 545
Defense: 327 - 10% (Dia II) = 295
cRatio = 1.50
Crit rate: 7% + 4% (merits) = 11%
fStr: +4
Base melee damage: 35 + 23 + 4 = 62
Base kick damage: 39

[Note: kept the 2 KA merits to make sure it was directly comparable with the Destroyers sample.]
100 attack rounds = 200 punches + 10 DA punches + 14.5 kicks

Baseline:
- punches: 23.1 crit, 186.9 non-crit
- kicks: 1.595 crit, 12.905 non-crit

Melee Damage: (62 * 186.9 * 1.5) * 1.15 + (62 * 23.1 * 2.5) * 1.15 + (39 * 12.905 * 1.5) + (39 * 1.595 * 2.5) = 25,017

Assuming 75/25 split for melee/weaponskill, weaponskill damage: 8,339

Total damage: 33,356

Scaled for delay at 348/386: 30,072.25

Base d18/+48 total: 25,739.56

Difference: +16.8%



Conclusion: Spharai ends up being around 10%-13% better than Destroyers, which matches some old parses of Destroyers vs Spharai with party damage share of about 30% vs 33%, respectively.

DA attack isn't like hate. The less DA you have to begin with, the more you have to gain from faiths. The gap would be larger on /nin than it would be on /war.