Random Politics & Religion #00

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Random Politics & Religion #00
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By Jetackuu 2016-02-18 20:49:39
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Jassik said: »
Shiva.Viciousss said: »
Jassik said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
I can't tell if people who are anti-wall are just anti-wall for the logistical reasons (which is a decent argument) or just flat out like illegal immigration.
Show me a 10 foot wall and I'll show you an 11 foot ladder... Fix the system that encourages illegal immigration or a wall is just a solution to the wrong problem.

I object to calling a wall a "solution."

It's a solution to keeping out Mongolian raiders or holding back loose soil... It won't do much to stem the imaginary flood of illegal immigrants, though.
I do find it amusing that people forget (or ignore, or just don't know) that a lot of illegal immigrants came here with a visa and overstayed. Then again there's also the giant clusterfuck of our legal immigration system (preaching to the wrong person on this one iirc), and then there's the fact that a wall would be entirely useless.

Now make a DMZ with dual walls, landmines, turrets, etc yeah, that may work to a degree, but who the hell is going to pay for it?
 Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2016-02-18 20:59:06
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In late breaking news:

New York Pair Asks Court to Throw Cruz Off Primary Ballot
Bloomberg busnes.

And:

Republican Insiders Plan for a Convention Fight Against Donald Trump or Ted Cruz
Time

There is really no TLDR for either of these.
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By Altimaomega 2016-02-18 21:12:54
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Alright, this is the 21st century. We do not need a 50 foot wall and the money it would cost would be stupid since it would still need to be guarded. (Our border is suppose to be "guarded" right now anyways)

So since we are already paying for a force that guards our border, why not make it easier and more efficient?

I am shocked that not only has nobody mentioned this but that it isn't even being done right now with the technology already here and available.

Yes, an electronic wall! Hell, it could be up and operational in a matter of weeks! Proximity sensors to alert the border guards and long range cameras to identify what/who tripped them.

At the same time we need to actually enforce the immigration laws we currently have in place! We could be deporting and keeping out illegal immigrants and getting this problem under control in no time.

Bu then what would the democrats and Republicans have to argue about.. They may actually be forced to move onto other things.. The horror!

Edit: Is anyone still reading the partition crap Chanti keeps posting? I used too, but I have found that banging my head against a wall is time better spent.
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By Siren.Kyte 2016-02-18 21:42:00
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Altimaomega said: »
I am shocked that not only has nobody mentioned this but that it isn't even being done right now with the technology already here and available.

Maybe because it already is.
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2016-02-18 22:38:38
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Yeah, we have infrared cameras, night vision cameras, movement sensors, helicopter response teams, and border patrol agents on the clock every night on the southern border. It would be pretty hard to improve the technology we already have in place.
As for the whole "enforce the law" and "secure the border" rhetoric from the right, its all bogus. Obama has deported more people than both of his predecessors, the border didn't magically become less secure in the last 7 years. He has also deported more criminals than his predecessors.
Ted Cruz tried those talking points in a few debates, and the fact checkers just ripped him up.
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By Altimaomega 2016-02-18 23:28:18
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lol "fact" checkers from the Washington Post.

http://cis.org/ICE-Illegal-Immigrant-Deportations
Quote:
A key talking point for proponents of amnesty for illegal aliens is that the Obama administration has made historic improvements to border security and immigration enforcement, leading to “record” numbers of deportations that surpass the performance of earlier administrations. In December 2012, John Morton, then-director of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), announced that his agency had removed nearly 410,000 illegal aliens that year. Major news outlets, pro-amnesty lawmakers, and other Obama administration allies heralded this apparent milestone as evidence that the border and illegal immigration were now under control.

On the same day, to far less fanfare, Morton also announced the implementation of new restrictions on how the agents and officers working under him could use their authority to enforce immigration laws. They were told to curtail the use of detainers, or immigration holds, which give ICE officers the opportunity to question and take custody of illegal aliens identified after arrest by a local law enforcement agency. This directive built on an earlier memo, issued in June 2011, which ordered ICE agents not to arrest certain broad categories of illegal aliens, including minor criminals, long-time residents, students, parents, caregivers, and a long list of other excepted categories for whom there was otherwise no statutory basis for special treatment. These and other directives have been euphemistically characterized as “prosecutorial discretion.”

This report examines data from a collection of mostly unpublished internal Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and ICE statistics, to provide an alternative evaluation of the administration’s record on immigration enforcement that is based on raw statistics rather than pre-packaged press kits. These statistics show that, contrary to what is commonly believed, in fact immigration enforcement in the interior has slowed significantly in the last few years. ICE is arresting and removing noticeably fewer illegal aliens from the interior now than was the case five years ago, and even two years ago. Its focus has shifted away from interior enforcement in favor of processing aliens who are apprehended by the Border Patrol.

Siren.Kyte said: »
Maybe because it already is.
Not good enough apparently.
http://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/southwest-border-unaccompanied-children/fy-2016

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/penny-starr/illegal-immigration-surge-106-more-unaccompanied-minors-173-more-family
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2016-02-18 23:41:57
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So ICE ordered its agents to focus more on border security while leaving the interior security to the FBI...and this is bad? Fact checkers remain accurate, and Cruz remains wrong.
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By Altimaomega 2016-02-18 23:55:17
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You forgot to stomp your foot and cross your arms.. Really is no point debating anything with you since that is your answer for everything, even when blatantly proven wrong time and time again.
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By Mesic 2016-02-18 23:55:22
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Altimaomega said: »

I cut up your quotes to make it easier for you to understand my points. But, it appears that doesn't matter since you don't read them anyways. Every single question and argument you have made I have answered in the past 3-4 pages and proved wrong everything the President and Democrats are turning into politics.

I am not Going to Repeat myself for you AGAIN.

You've never repeated yourself for me lol....?? You're so angry about doing something for me you haven't even been asked to do, I love it.

All I'm asking you to do is point out where a liberal has played politics in terms of Obama appointing a judge. This isn't an argument you make (thus need to repeat yourself), it would something you saw a liberal make that you copied and pasted. You originally said the politics being played on both sides is hilarious, show me the hilarious on the liberal side. Is this so complicated?

How your mind warps simple requests into things you can respond to is nothing short of amazing.

Which bring me to the cut up quote. I said "it's was his job to appoint a judge...?". In the sense of, what possible politics could they be playing with this appointment if its his job. How you read that as me questioning whether you think its his job is beyond me. Cutting up my quotes didnt make anything easier for me to understand, ironically it just made it harder for yourself to understand.
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By Altimaomega 2016-02-19 00:11:37
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Mesic said: »
I said "it's was his job to appoint a judge...?". In the sense of, what possible politics could they be playing with this appointment if its his job. How you read that as me questioning whether you think its his job is beyond me.
Probably the question mark you used.. Would be my guess.

Mesic said: »
You've never repeated yourself for me lol....?? You're so angry about doing something for me you haven't even been asked to do, I love it.
Not angry.. Annoyed that you fail at backreading and think I owe you an answer that has already been answered multiple time.

Mesic said: »
All I'm asking you to do is point out where a liberal has played politics in terms of Obama appointing a judge. This isn't an argument you make (thus need to repeat yourself), it would something you saw a liberal make that you copied and pasted. You originally said the politics being played on both sides is hilarious, show me the hilarious on the liberal side. Is this so complicated?
Like I said. Use the power of back reading..
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By Garuda.Chanti 2016-02-19 09:42:15
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Altimaomega said: »
....
Edit: Is anyone still reading the partition crap Chanti keeps posting? I used too, but I have found that banging my head against a wall is time better spent.
Bloomberg is pretty darn conservative economically. Time is fairly centrist.

You should read the Time one, you might learn something. The Bloomberg one is merely interesting for being the first time Cruz's eligibility will be tested in court.
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2016-02-19 10:00:44
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Altimaomega said: »
You forgot to stomp your foot and cross your arms.. Really is no point debating anything with you since that is your answer for everything, even when blatantly proven wrong time and time again.

Lol, you need to stop claiming you "prove people wrong" when that doesn't actually happen. You didn't disprove anything I said, and unless you can provide different deportation numbers, you aren't going to. You just tried to change the conversation and resort to pathetic insults that are always dismissed.
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By Altimaomega 2016-02-19 10:03:35
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Shiva.Viciousss said: »
You didn't disprove anything I said, and unless you can provide different deportation numbers, you aren't going to.

I showed you why those numbers are wrong. Not my fault you are biased.

Shiva.Viciousss said: »
You just tried to change the conversation and resort to pathetic insults that are always dismissed.

Picking up your habits.. My bad. I didn't lie, unlike you.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-02-19 10:06:55
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Shiva.Viciousss said: »
You didn't disprove anything I said
You use that excuse way too often.

I'm starting to think you don't know what that word means...
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By Altimaomega 2016-02-19 10:07:27
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Garuda.Chanti said: »
Altimaomega said: »
....
Edit: Is anyone still reading the partition crap Chanti keeps posting? I used too, but I have found that banging my head against a wall is time better spent.
Bloomberg is pretty darn conservative economically. Time is fairly centrist.

You should read the Time one, you might learn something. The Bloomberg one is merely interesting for being the first time Cruz's eligibility will be tested in court.

This conversation again... /sigh
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-02-19 10:09:20
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It's a bit back in the pages but I think this was this month's gem:
Altimaomega said: »
I've been owning you for two pages
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By 2016-02-19 10:17:10
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Post deleted by User.
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 Shiva.Nikolce
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-19 10:17:41
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Garuda.Chanti said: »
you might learn something

I'm excited by the prospect of brokered conventions on both the democratic and republican side. We need a repeat of the 68 chicago convention with billy clubs and pepper spray.
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 Shiva.Viciousss
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2016-02-19 10:39:56
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Altimaomega said: »
Shiva.Viciousss said: »
You didn't disprove anything I said, and unless you can provide different deportation numbers, you aren't going to.

I showed you why those numbers are wrong. Not my fault you are biased.

Shiva.Viciousss said: »
You just tried to change the conversation and resort to pathetic insults that are always dismissed.

Picking up your habits.. My bad. I didn't lie, unlike you.

No you didn't. You are in fact lying. The article you posted admitted the numbers are correct but tried to point out other things not related to the numbers. Like I said, unless you can post different deportation numbers, which you have not done, you are lying.
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By Drama Torama 2016-02-19 10:46:39
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Shiva.Nikolce said: »
I'm excited by the prospect of brokered conventions on both the democratic and republican side. We need a repeat of the 68 chicago convention with billy clubs and pepper spray.

I am actively rooting for the most ridiculous *** possible at this point. The sky is the limit!

Like, if we could get Trump+Cruz to re-enact Hamilton/Burr, the PPVs would probably erase the national debt. Trump's a lunatic and Cruz is Texan, so this isn't nearly as far off the table as it should be, either.

I was trying to come up with an appropriate bit of ridiculous for the other side, in the interest of equal time, but those two are so boring. The best we could hope for is that Sanders picks a lesbian Filipino dwarf as a running mate or something.
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By Altimaomega 2016-02-19 10:48:09
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Shiva.Viciousss said: »
No you didn't. You are in fact lying. The article you posted admitted the numbers are correct but tried to point out other things not related to the numbers. Like I said, unless you can post different deportation numbers, which you have not done, you are lying.


Ehh. I had a bunch of stuff typed up. I just decided to go talk to a wall instead.
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-02-19 10:48:56
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Altimaomega said: »
Ehh. I had a bunch of stuff typed up. I just decided to go talk to a wall instead.
Thank you.
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 Shiva.Nikolce
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-19 10:51:37
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Drama Torama said: »
Shiva.Nikolce said: »
I'm excited by the prospect of brokered conventions on both the democratic and republican side. We need a repeat of the 68 chicago convention with billy clubs and pepper spray.

I am actively rooting for the most ridiculous *** possible at this point. The sky is the limit!

Like, if we could get Trump+Cruz to re-enact Hamilton/Burr, the PPVs

Sanders picks a lesbian Filipino dwarf as a running mate or something.

me too!

Philly and Cleveland are gigantic powder kegs already. They couldn't have picked worse better spots!

/popcorn
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 Shiva.Viciousss
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2016-02-19 11:07:45
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Altimaomega said: »
Shiva.Viciousss said: »
No you didn't. You are in fact lying. The article you posted admitted the numbers are correct but tried to point out other things not related to the numbers. Like I said, unless you can post different deportation numbers, which you have not done, you are lying.


Ehh. I had a bunch of stuff typed up. I just decided to go talk to a wall instead.

Good idea, since there is nothing for you to type, you actually need to post a link showing deportation numbers that show that Obama has not in fact deported more people than his predecessors. Or you can just admit that he has.
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By Altimaomega 2016-02-19 11:23:49
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Shiva.Viciousss said: »
Altimaomega said: »
Shiva.Viciousss said: »
No you didn't. You are in fact lying. The article you posted admitted the numbers are correct but tried to point out other things not related to the numbers. Like I said, unless you can post different deportation numbers, which you have not done, you are lying.


Ehh. I had a bunch of stuff typed up. I just decided to go talk to a wall instead.

Good idea, since there is nothing for you to type, you actually need to post a link showing deportation numbers that show that Obama has not in fact deported more people than his predecessors. Or you can just admit that he has.

I can admit a lot of things.
I can admit he has deported more people. I can also admit more people have came over the border during his term as well and are allowed to stay. I can also admit he is doing nothing about over stayed visas. While I am admitting things, lets not forget about how many illegal immigrants have legal jobs and legal drivers licenses!

Unlike you, I don't stop after the first sentence and declare victory. Just like how the unemployment number is down. It isn't down because more people are working. It is down because less people are looking for a job.

All you seem to care about is Obama has deported more people and unemployment is down.

Sure it is true, since they changed the way they use the numbers. But at the same time it is a massive lie.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2016-02-19 11:30:03
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Shiva.Viciousss said: »
Altimaomega said: »
Shiva.Viciousss said: »
No you didn't. You are in fact lying. The article you posted admitted the numbers are correct but tried to point out other things not related to the numbers. Like I said, unless you can post different deportation numbers, which you have not done, you are lying.


Ehh. I had a bunch of stuff typed up. I just decided to go talk to a wall instead.

Good idea, since there is nothing for you to type, you actually need to post a link showing deportation numbers that show that Obama has not in fact deported more people than his predecessors. Or you can just admit that he has.

There's no point to this argument. You might as well be comparing apples to oranges, because the definitions have changed. The DHS started handling removals and returns differently in the second half of Bush's presidency, so the numbers don't add up the way they used to. Under Obama, the number of what are classified as removals are up, but the total number of removals and returns are less than what occurred under Bush. Do some research for once.
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 Shiva.Viciousss
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2016-02-19 11:42:13
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The number of returns is down and has been down since Bush because the number of people returning from Mexico is down, fewer people are coming back here, the article I posted clearly says that.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2016-02-19 11:56:55
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Shiva.Viciousss said: »
The number of returns is down and has been down since Bush because the number of people returning from Mexico is down, fewer people are coming back here, the article I posted clearly says that.

You're using a different definition for "return" than I was. What classifies as a return is someone who was sent back across the border without formal processing. DHS started making more of these returns formal, with all the necessary paperwork and permanent records, which classifies them as "removals". This is why Obama's numbers for deportation are up even though less people are actually being sent back.
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