Oirandori

Hold up.
Even if the effect is active all the time, the only testing I saw said it increased crit rate by 10%
how does +10% crit rate sometimes being active make up for losing 20% crit rate all the time?


Kamome vs Ori outside abyssea:

The only test I saw said on average it increased crit rate by 5%.
+5% crit rate can basically be looked at as +5% damage as long as your crits do double what your normal swings do. Looking at my last einherjar parse, my melee average was 96, my crit average was 181, so this is pretty close.
5 dex is 2.5 acc, or 1.25% hit rate, or 1.25% increase in damage, provided you need the acc.

Kamome is 8 acc, 8 att, 10% crit damage.
8 acc is 4% hit rate, or an increase of 4% damage, if you need acc.
8 att would give around a 1% damage increase.
if your crit rate is capped, (25%) 10% crit damage would give 2.5% damage. 3% if you use af3+2 body.

Looking only at the stats of the katanas, it's easy to see kamome is better outside abyssea too. The damage/delay differences will basically make up for themselves since lower delay would allow for faster tp gain and more swings from main hand for aftermath procs, while higher damage would give slightly higher damage when it swings. But seriously, kamome wins this side of the arguement too, just not by very much.

Kamome vs Ori inside abyssea:
inside abyssea, crit rate is 75%, 80% with af3+2 body, 100% with ininn which I think I saw someone say they used which just seems wrong. Kamome's crit damage bonus alone would make it win, it's a 7.5% up to 10% damage increase.

So seriously, anyone with a kannagi can save their time/effort/brews and not bother with Ori, the only time it's useful (when youre 5 dex from ddex cap and acc capped) will never happen before something better comes along. And if it does, the time gained from using Ori won't matter because of everything you lost to obtain it.

Kaerin... are you talking about a pre solo situation? Because I'm not quite sure thats what the others are referring to here. The Ori's usefulness outside of Aby, I believe, is that it allows all your melee to crit more... Am I wrong in thinking this?

Apoc RR SS /w Oiran may compete with Apoc RR GH in terms of spike damage and damage over time, not to mention benefits to other party members.

Oooooooooo you play with other other people on NIN outside abyssea, I thought we were just talking about which does more damage for the ninja. You can make that argument if you want to.


so 5% crit rate and 30% crit damage and 5 dex is better then 20% crit rate 10% crit damage 8acc and 8 att?
Is this what we're comparing?

Well whatever, tired of waiting on your response, this is what I think we're comparing. Since the only test showed Ori only increased crit rate by 5% on average.

I just fought a Glavoid, and parsed it for this test. It's an NM, and not terribly hard or easy, so it's fine. Only buffs I used were a mithkabob, and for atmas I had rr/gn/apoc. Also I did not use kamome offhand, I used a sekka+2. My crit damage+ was 4(haidate) 5(qirmiz) 2(iga necklace) 30(rr). My crit rate was 76%, 1% over expected return of 75%. (GN, RR, DEX, and 5 from merits.)

Melee average -0's was 66
Crit average -0's was 186
Base crit damage -0's is 132

Since I was using some crit+damage we need to figure out what the base crit damage was to apply +crit damage to it. I had +41% crit damage, so its 186/1.41 so 132 is my base average crit damage.

Now all we have to do to see which is better now that we have a base melee average and crit average is to count 100 hits applying the crit rate and damage numbers to them and see which wins.

Base is Apoc and RR with 11% crit damage from gear.
55% crit rate, 41% crit damage.

Ori would be 30% crit damage and 5% rate.
60% crit rate and +71% crit damage
So in 100 hits we will have 45 not crits and 55 crits.
So 40x melee average, 60xcrit average.
132 is crit average, +71% damage is 132*1.71 is 226
So we get:
(40*66)+(60*226)=16200
2640+13560=16200
16,200 damage in 100 hits with ori and ss

GN and Kamome is 20% crit rate and 10% crit damage.
75% crit rate and + 51% crit damage
So in 100 hits you get 25 not crits, 75 crits.
so 25x melee average, 75x crit average.
132 is crit average, +51% damage is 132*1.51 is 200
So we get:
(25*66)+(75*200)=16650
(1650)+(15000)=16650
16,650 in 100 hits with kamome and GN

So as you can see, Kamome and GN is superior to Ori and SS, even without factoring in the acc and att on kamome.

To take this 1 step further, 16650/16200=1.02777777777777
So Kamome/GN is actually about 3% better then Ori/SS not counting the acc/att on kamome, which if useful would push it to 9% better easily.
This also doesn't take into account the affect of 50 agl on blade: hi, if you have it, or the increased procs from kannagi aftermath based on lower delay. 5 base damage? even if 5 base damage was a 5% increase in damage, it would still be behind. (its not btw, its much less then 5%)

To sum this up:
If you have Kannagi, no way ori and ss wins, if you do not have Kannagi, well you should main hand Ori and offhand Kamome anyway but GN will do better than SS still.

Also: feel free to do math and tell me where I am wrong and how I messed up, or provide your own math to show Ori is better, I'm always open for debate.

Looks good, I for one appreciate your testing. As I suspected, the comparison is close (less than 10%). I would say you may chose Oiran /kamome / SS if you needed the extra hitpoints.

In a discussion about damage output, it clearly makes sense to sacrifice EVERYTHING to maximize damage, something only applicable to rare situations in game.

If I'm worried about HP, I actually give up Apoc for SS.
Because if you're worried about HP, you're worried about TP moves probably, and apoc is 15% TA rate, which is a lot of TP gain for you and the mob.

And if you look at it, someone stupid said they tested apoc and it was broken somehow and was only giving a 12% TA rate. No one argued with this person and said they were stupid and wrong, so I dunno what to believe, but I will not utter his name here, lets just say it starts with a p and he's a dumbass. If this is true, SS would be the same increase in damage anyway. 12 TA basically being a 24% damage increase, and 30% Crit damage on 80& crit rate being a 24% damage increase also. But 1 way gives the mob more tp, and one does not, and increases your HP.

To elaborate more, the actual discussion should be about giving up Apoc for SS full time, not GN. But it requires someone to go test apoc atma's triple attack rate, and quite frankly, I don't wanna.

If you guys wanted to know the exact Crit % of Oirandori's additional effect, you could use a 100% Crit method as follows:

* DD, RR, GH Atmas and no Crit gear for 95% crit rate
* If Oirandori procs, is it possible to have a non-crit afterwards? If not, the potency is >5%.
* Repeat without DD, but with varying amounts of crit gear (or other Atma like SQ) until you hit the point where you can non-crit after an Oirandori proc.


This will tell you the exact proc rate. Telling the difference between a 0% and a 1% non-crit rate isn't incredibly easy, but it's a lot faster using this method than trying to accurately parse it. You can get a good feeling for what it is pretty darned quickly too, when you reach the point that you're dramatically decreasing your non-crit rate every time you add another 1% crit.

I'm also mildly interested in proc rates in general, if you have data on that.

Did they remove the crit rate cap from atmas? Last I saw +crit rate from atmas capped at 50%

Anyway, after it procs you can get not-crits, and the only parses so far showed a 5% crit rate increase overall, it looked to be a 10% increase with the effect on. If I had one I'd play with it for a very long time and parse, but it's junk for me so I don't care to go waste cruor and get it. From what I hear I can't solo the NM with my NIN and WHM, and every time I've even gone there to try, it hasn't been up, so I quit caring. Sorry if this post isn't useful.

Hey hey hey how bout some *Ninja tool expertise* for those ninjas on a budget!

Crit rate from Atma has never capped at 50%. Crit rate totally caps at 100%. The idea is that you force a 100% Crit rate using the -Critical Evasion Rate from the Katana and varying amounts of Crit gear. Once you've figured out how much Crit gear you need, you've figured out the crit rate boost from it.

If you're interested in figuring out the proc rate, pull a few monsters, single-wield it, and switch between them when it procs. I'd bet a 15-20% Proc rate, based on the other Additional Effect items they've added lately.

The NM isn't really that bad of a fight, but I think I saw some incorrect information here. It's not that he has high Defense, it's that he has about -50% Damage Taken. Frag Bomb is like 1000 needles, iirc, so the more people in range the less damage it will do.

Cool beans, awesome idea then, you people with Ori go find out this important information and I will tell you how off my math is and which would really do more. Otherwise I'm sticking to it sucking cause the only parse said 5% overall increase!

10% out of 50% of the time, 5% overall.

Ninja ain't my thang, nor do I particularly give a ***about the weapon. If there was a Ninja out there that had this weapon and wanted to know how their job works, it wouldn't be that hard to test and a parse wouldn't be the way to do it.

I did similar tests to figure out Feather Step potency, the proc rate on Jinx Discus, etc.

Also, don't buy the hype about this NM being hard. We took it down with a party of 6 and I had hate the vast majority of the time on WAR/NIN, so it wasn't like I was evading. People that get dropped in two attack rounds need to learn about PDT gear.

so from the "party" stand point, losing out of 3% of personal damage to increase the effectiveness of the party is a huge boon.

3% not counting the acc/att/50agl to hi.
And of course, you also need a party worth helping.